> iPhone 16e has the best battery life ever on a 6.1-inch iPhone, lasting up to six hours longer than iPhone 11 and up to 12 hours longer than all generations of iPhone SE.
Their page comparing models claims the new 16e gets "26 hours video playback."
The new battery life seems to be mostly due to their new Apple C1 cellular modem, replacing the Qualcomm modems in earlier models.
> Expanding the benefits of Apple silicon, C1 is the first modem designed by Apple and the most power-efficient modem ever on an iPhone, delivering fast and reliable 5G cellular connectivity. Apple silicon — including C1 — the all-new internal design, and the advanced power management of iOS 18 all contribute to extraordinary battery life.
I'm sure the modem contributes, but IMO the battery life is probably mostly from just having a bigger battery due to the new internal design (and maybe chemistry changes). The new design moves the frame's structure into the middle of the sandwich, making it more rigid and allowing them to make the frame thinner to pack in more battery.
Lots of people are mad about losing magsafe but in magsafe phones the magnets sit flush with the frame in a huge circular cutout just below the back glass. The hole weakens the frame so the frame has to be thicker because of it.
I don't think there is really a world where this phone gets 6 more hours of battery life while still having magsafe and fitting into the existing shape of the iPhone 14.
IMO somebody just made that up based on it sharing the outer dimensions of the iPhone 14 which also happens to have exactly 3279 mAh. I can't really figure out what "larger battery" could mean in their release video if it isn't larger than at least the 14 if not the 16.
The iPhone 16e is based on the iPhone 14 chassis, with various internal hardware components swapped out. Just like the previous iPhone SE was based on the iPhone 8. So I guess there was an assumption that maybe it uses the same battery as the 14.
But given that the cameras got swapped out for a single lens, the MagSafe magnets were removed, etc, it’s certainly conceivable that they freed up space internally for a larger battery in the 16e!
But it is an interesting question: What is the manufacturing tolerance? Naively I had assumed that it's much smaller than a watt-hour. But that's based on ~no knowledge :D
It’s a nominal capacity that’s printed on the battery, and encoded into its firmware. In practice, batteries tend to exceed this nominal capacity when they’re brand new which is why you see new batteries stay on 100% charge for a long time. As it ages, the true capacity will degrade and eventually falls below the nominal capacity.
Well it could be that the capacity is 3200-3349, and they publish the number that is in the center of confidence interval. Rounding up would be received badly, and rounding down suggests it has less capacity than it really does (on average)
> the mAh of this phone's battery is a secret or something
It can easily be measured from the time required to fully charge the phone (when turned off), and continuously monitoring the power it draws from the charger.
It could, but as it is all the components are directly against the back glass. The magnets have thickness so the phone would have to be thicker or the battery would have to be thinner for everything to fit.
Its been a long slog for Apple, they have been working on this since 2018, and they had to keep extending its supply agreements with Qualcomm...
"Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part for Its New iPhones"
>The 2018 marching orders from Apple Chief Executive Tim Cook to design and build a modem chip—a part that connects iPhones to wireless carriers—led to the hiring of thousands of engineers. The goal was to sever Apple’s grudging dependence on Qualcomm, a longtime chip supplier that dominates the modem market. The obstacles to finishing the chip were largely of Apple’s own making, according to former company engineers and executives familiar with the project. Apple had planned to have its modem chip ready to use in the new iPhone models. But tests late last year found the chip was too slow and prone to overheating. Its circuit board was so big it would take up half an iPhone, making it unusable.
Modems are harder to get right than CPUs. A CPU needs to do math and work with digital data lines. A modem needs to talk to the mobile network, using radios, and a bunch of standards that were built up since the 90s.
Tacking on: the devil in a modern baseband is in the firmware. The analog domain stuff is generally handled by increasingly commoditized RF frontends outside of the baseband processor, and then either clean analog IQ or more recently, even digital samples (DAC and ADC moved to frontend) are sent to the baseband processor.
A baseband is a really fancy specialized SDR. Most are based on arcane VLIW DSP architectures like Qualcomm’s Hexagon or Samsung Marconi - you’ll usually have several DSPs handling the different physical layer channels, and then some coordinating DSPs doing L1 channel mixing and timing (in 4G and 5G, various logical and transport channels are muxed into the same physical channels).
Then a set of higher level processor cores (usually referred to as CP, sometimes still a DSP but often a general purpose application processor like ARM) will handle the MAC and above. There will be occasional fixed function blocks for some common protocol functions, but generally it’s less “analog magic” in the way people think when they hear “radio” and more “DSP magic.”
If you look at the math it's not even that complicated. Basic statistical inference and information theory.
Seems like the difficult part is doing that effectively while avoiding IP issues -- patents on software and math have entrenched Qualcomm's dominance.
Imagine if all of the IP for ML or AI were held by a single company that got the regulating body (ITU/3GPP) to require their use. Makes a mockery of FRAND terms.
It is extremely hard to design a modem like this. Just the ADCs and DACs you need are like 2-3 year development and 1-2 year testing before going into production.
CPUs can be easily developed in an ecosystem where annual updates and the ability to end-of-life hardware older than a decade are the norm. Cellular network opereators share none of those properties with Apple, and so any new modem chip designed to interoperate with carriers would necessarily be an order of magnitude more difficult to implement than an CPU that only needs to interoperate with Xcode would be.
Except making a decent modem is indeed harder than start of art CPU. People loves to shit on Qualcomm but dont appreciate that amount of work involved.
The hard part is designing a good modem while also unambiguously working around all the Qualcomm patents in all the jurisdictions that have iPhone, which is all of them.
Because if you don’t do that, you’re still paying Qualcomm which defeats an important purpose of making your own modem.
All those patents are standards-essential, which means Qualcomm (and anyone else involved in the standardization process for cellular networks) has to license them under "FRAND[0]" terms, which at least for this scenario means "for the same price we'd license them to Samsung or Intel[1]". It also means that design-arounds are not possible; if you design a different technology from the one Qualcomm owns, you're not speaking 5G anymore. That's why we have these legal rules on standards-essential patents.
[0] Fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory. Each one of those words has a funny legal definition separate from whatever English you're thinking of.
[1] Who, incidentally, sold Apple the modem division that made the C1, because Intel is nothing but a bottomless pit of bad management decisions
I’ll admit with not being up to speed here, my information is actually fairly old, but Qualcomm is famous for skirting its FRAND obligations and as far as I know “no license, no chips” is still de rigor.
https://www.sunsteinlaw.com/publications/no-license-no-chips...
In 2025 it is time to give credit for Apple's PR spreading whole misinformation online during and after the trial. Macrumours and 9to5mac loves to repeat those narrative about Apple no longer has to pay any patent fees when they make their own modem.
As the reply below, Apple still has to pay its SEP. Given Apple has its current deal with Qualcomm until 2027 with time to extend further we likely won't know the full details. Previously it was 5% of Wholesale price for all Qualcomm patents whether they are SEP, wireless or not. With a cap or maximum $20 per smartphone meaning the Pro range don't have to pay a lot more. And rebate towards the modem Apple purchase. The reality after deducting rebate Apple was paying closer to 5%. For reference Ericsson ask for 3% on 5G SEP, previous Cory ruling suggest reality was closer to 2%.
I would buy that a decent modem is harder than many CPU designs, maybe even most. But harder than state-of-the-art? Surely not, have you seen the complexity?
And even CPUs (esp state of art) have to worry about radio effects, as in avoiding internally and across chipset.
I never worked on radio modems, but I've worked on wireline modems: the issue is not the math or the standard algorithms, it's making it interoperable with everything that's existing out there and all environment conditions while working around bugs of other implementations.
It is a ridiculous amount of work and if you're new to the business, it takes a long time just to be build the lab test suite. And you need to support not just the latest and greatest protocols but also legacy ones. The operators have their own say and test labs as well and they all have slightly different setups and requirements.
> And even CPUs (esp state of art) have to worry about radio effects, as in avoiding internally and across chipset.
Radio effect are rarely an issue with regular chips. Crosstalk within a chip only happens between wires that are within hundreds of nanometers separated from each other.
I meant RF impact on the internal functioning of the chip, not the other way around. EMI has always been a thing, it's not specific to state of the art CPUs.
State of the art CPUs aren't fundamentally different to more basic CPUs. They just have fancier microarchitectures, better branch predictors, more cache, etc.
Easy to believe radios would be an order of magnitude harder, what with the ancient proprietary standards and actual physical radio stuff. (The closest CPUs get is serdes and in my experience those are bought in from Synopsys et al.)
The CPU/SOC operates independently with limited protocols (such as PCIe, NVMe, etc.). In contrast, a baseband processor must communicate with various base stations and core networks, requiring precise timing, physical signal alignment, and correct message formats. Even though the 3GPP defines mobile network standards, achieving full compatibility remains extremely challenging.
A lot of the mobile networks use off the shelf hardware. That was one of the reasons Huawei was painful to remove from global phone networks. If they don't work, they will not work over multiple networks.
If there are reports of iPhones failing to work reliably from Kansas City to Kuala Lumpur then it would be unlikely to be the operators being blamed here.
In fairness, Apple started by licensing the ARM core which gave them a base to work from. The modem is fantastically harder unless you can license an existing design that's not qualcomm.
Their CPU is based on ARM IP, it’s not like they designed it from the ground up. The modem they might have had to? Also I guess a big challenge are all the patents you need to be aware of and find ways to license or circumvent, not sure if that’s worse for modems but it seems all wireless / cellular technology is riddled with patents (not saying CPUs aren’t but again ARM is probably taking care of some of that for Apple).
No, that's not how the Apple Silicon works - it was at the very start, but the processor cores haven't been based on Arm IP since the A6, since then the Arm designed cores were replaced with fully custom cores that are just compatible with the Arm instruction set.
Same with the GPU except that was later on - it was a licensed PowerVR IP until Apple started using their own custom GPU from the A11.
They bought intel’s entire modem unit, so it’s not a ground up design, but maybe that makes it worse… who knows what was causing intel to not be competitive in that space…
Modem has always been a pain point since it's an entire SoC that had to be shielded from the rest of the system. Apple producing their own modem is a giant undertaking.
Not nearly close enough to when they are receiving data, especially video.
When actively receiving data, a cellular modem will use significantly more power than when idle, with the exact amount depending on factors like network strength, data rate, and the specific modem technology, but typically ranging from several hundred milliwatts to a few watts
Sending data with a radio is always much more power intensive than receiving data unless the channel is extremely asymmetric in bandwidth and/or data rate.
I am wondering exactly the same.
Maybe the standby costs? The chip needs to always have power to be able to receive the radio waves, it uses less power in that way but still quite a bit, I guess.
The surprise is how much power that is. It's either that or misleading marketing.
I know Apple struggled to make this modem, so maybe it's still not great when it comes to standby power consumption.
Since it's Apple we will only know after quite a bit of independent testing...
In the video, they did say that the C1 is the "most power-efficient modem ever in an iPhone." They also said that they have an "all new internal design for iPhone 16e that has been optimized for a larger battery."
Part of it is certainly the modem, but part of it is also likely to be the larger battery.
I'm really curious to see both how the Apple C1 performs and also how they changed up the internals for a larger battery and how much larger that battery is.
My iPhone today last for less than a day while I dont watch any video on it, In fact, i barely use it currently, and it still drains batteries in no time. And yes, I disabled most background services and location services and run screen on low brightness - all the popular hacks to reduce battery usage.
I think the iphone does a lot more in the background than you might consider initially. Here is an experiment to try. Use your phone as you currently do, but turn on airplane mode when you aren't otherwise using the phone. Leave it on overnight too. You should only lose a few percentage overnight on airplane mode even with an old phone.
> I think the iphone does a lot more in the background than you might consider initially.
I understand that. My point being that 25 year old tech, before the real miniatyrization of circuits and power efficiency mind you, has 7x charge time and yet we are impressed by a few additional hours.
> Here is an experiment to try. Use your phone as you currently do, but turn on airplane mode when you aren't otherwise using the phone. Leave it on overnight too.
Sure but to what benefit?
I already addressed the tweaks i did do in a sibling comment. Putting the phone in airplane mode is no different than having a dead battery in terms of usability.
> At best some sms at a significantly reduced polling rate.
SMS was piggybacked onto the control plane messaging. That is why the limit was 160 chars (only space available) and why texts can still work when the cell towers are overloaded.
> I understand that. My point being that 25 year old tech, before the real miniatyrization of circuits and power efficiency mind you, has 7x charge time and yet we are impressed by a few additional hours.
Yes because those phones by comparison do nothing so it’s a meaningless comparison.
It’s like arguing that we shouldn’t be impressed about EV range improvements because the bicycle exists.
So most people make heavy use of applications like TikTok, Instagram, Facebook etc, take photos and videos, real time video calling, getting directions etc. All whilst on a colour, high-resolution screen orders of magnitude better than the Nokia phones.
Acting like physics doesn’t exist and we should be able to get a month long battery life whilst doing all of the above is idiotic. No other way to describe it.
Try disabling Bluetooth from within the settings. My iPhone and iPad would drain like 50% of their batteries overnight if I left Bluetooth on. Now they drain about 10-15%. Still a lot for devices doing nothing, but better than before.
The drop down menu doesn't actually disable bluetooth so that alone won't work.
Of course your phone has a short runtime, it both has a small battery and it's 3 years old so the battery's worn out. One of the main reasons why small phones remain a niche is that improvements in battery technology have been far outpaced by improvements in SoCs, so the easiest way to improve a device's battery life vs. the older model is to make it larger so it can fit a bigger battery. Even when it was new, the regular iPhone 13 had a 3220 mAh battery while the 13 mini had a 2400 mAh battery, despite both having the same processor. You end up sacrificing battery life to achieve the small size.
If only one could open the back and replace the battery, the thing that has been known to everybody to wear out while the rest of the device is perfectly functional. One could only dream of such advanced technology. Maybe in 10 years.
You can. Or at least Apple can (for which they’ll charge you $80 or so). Sure, you can’t “hot swap” during the day, but if you like the size, it seems well worth the expense to get a new battery installed.
I know you're trying to make a point or something, but Apple or an independent service center will do just that for not much more than the price of the battery.
I have found low-battery mode to be very useful. I also have background updates turned off for most apps, but this greatly extends my battery life. When traveling, I turn it on by default at the beginning of the day.
My iPhone today last for less than a day while I dont watch any video on it, In fact, i barely use it currently, and it still drains batteries in no time.
Odd. I wonder if you have some apps updating in the background a lot.
Both my personal and my work iPhones are two-years-old, and both will last several days even with audio streaming.
I put my work phone in its drawer last Thursday, and when I took it out on Tuesday, it still had 11% left.
When I was working the polls some months ago I was in an unusually low signal area and my phone ended up completely dying (not had that happen in a decade probably) due to Tailscale using 50% of my battery. Crazy bug.
I haven't done this in a while but when I used to travel I'd get a local SIM and then put my home SIM in an old Android phone. Since the home SIM was roaming (expensive), I'd turn off data, I just wanted to receive calls and texts.
It'd usually last around 2 weeks with data off. I imagine an iPhone would fare even better.
There's maybe other simplicity things that make it more battery efficient, like no dynamic island, only one camera, no magsafe, maybe stuff like that. But I am not an expert or anything
Fairly misleading, since according to the comparison on their site (https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/?modelList=iphone-16,ip...) the slightly-bigger 6.3 inch iPhone 16 Pro gets 27 hours of video playback vs the 16e's 26 hours. (Regular iPhone 16 is 22 though.)
> im not trying to make it punchy, im trying to clarify my point
Your phrasing requires prior knowledge of the iPhone 16 and iPhone 16 Pro. It's also defining an interval without giving context to whether that interval is meaningful, where on the interval the 16e exists, and if any of the preceding are meaningful. The increased precision comes at the cost of conciseness and clarity.
Apple's, on the other hand, tells me that this is the best battery life an iPhone has had in this form factor. No unnecessary priors being pulled; I just need to know if I like a 6.1" screen.
Of course it is, it makes you think they're talking about the non-Max size class iPhones when in fact they're splitting hairs about a 5mm difference in screen size to make it sound more impressive.
It's possible the battery chemistry has also changed. In the last 12-18 months, a bunch of Android phones have gotten large battery capacity upgrades, apparently thanks to silicon-carbon anodes being mature enough for mass production. Presumably Apple is now doing the sam thing.
The OnePlus 13 and Oppo Find X8 both got 10% capacity upgrades over their previous iterations but with the same size/weight. The Honor Magic V2 also has a huge battery despite being a very slim foldable (5,000 mAh, compared to 3,000-3,500 on the ones from Samsung and Google).
Do signs point toward Apple adopting a unique, new cell chemistry for what will be their high-volume budget product for the next few years? It would have probably been a marketing line if so, similar to the C1 modem. A bigger battery doesn't imply new tech.
(Yes, the phone expensive now, but these SE-tier phones typically get discounts pretty quickly after release through carriers/non-apple retail; and then a bigger & formal sale price decrease when the next phone generation comes out.)
The overlap of the “cares about battery chemistry” and “purchases the lowest tier device” is probably close to 0
The C1 modem gets a line because Wall Street has seen that expense for a decade now, so this is a “win” for them. Battery chemistry is completely 3rd party, so they’ll claim the battery life improvement
The C1 modem is also not a feature that users care about, other than the increased battery life (that Apple does advertise). In fact, there will be concerns that the modem isn't as good as the existing ones in some edge case.
Putting the new modem into the new "budget" phone reduces expectations so that the impact of any issues will be blunted. Only when all the problems have been ironed out, that will be when the mainstream iPhones will get the new modem.
Well yes of course. But the whole point of the ring is to align them perfectly so the efficiency is high and so you can use the phone without it falling off or losing alignment.
Using a case with the magnet ring in it solves this problem for the 16e without the ring in the phone itself.
It works fine, you just have to manually align it, like any other Qi charger.
I half suspect you're trolling based on this and your other comments under this post, but in case you're not, the Magsafe charger specs state they are Qi compatible.
> The MagSafe Charger is compatible with Qi2 and Qi charging, so it can be used to
> wirelessly charge your iPhone 8 or later, as well as AirPods models with a wireless
> charging case, as you would with any Qi2 or Qi-certified charger.
PS: What MagSafe charger cost you $150? The regular Apple charger costs $39.
Not OP but I have the Anker 3-in-1 Cube and it was $150 when I bought it a year or two ago. It charges a phone, watch, and airpods at the same time, and sparks joy for me.
I got a Belkin one 5 years ago for about the same price. Charges my phone and watch! Awesome. Then the next year I got a 13 Pro Max, and the charging coils didn't line up. Phone won't charge. I swore to never buy $150 chargers ever again.
I paid $25 for something from China. It took a month to arrive, but it works great.
Just as well as any of the other ones for Android phones. Heck, you can even buy adhesive magnet rings to stick directly to any case or phone back, as long as you align them properly.
Well I have an ancient wireless charger (power unknown) that doubles as a stand that I got for free as swag from some conference. I just keep my magsafe supporting phone on it when I'm not using it and done.
Literally just replaced the flimsy clip-on vent mount charger in my car with a ProClip custom fit mount and a Qi2 charger that ran me ~$115 all-in. I wanted longevity with this solution.
It is an iPhone 16, inside iPhone 14 Body, Single Camera from iPhone 16, with iPhone 14 OLED Screen, Apple Modem, Without UWB, Minus 1 GPU Core on A18, 7.5W MagSafe Charging same as iPhone 14. Wifi 6 instead of Wifi 7 on iPhone 16.
However at $599, higher than the rumoured $499 or $549 pricing. iPhone 14 previously at $599 and iPhone SE at $429 are now gone. Getting rid of iPhone 14 and iPhone SE as they are both using Lightning and not USB-C.
The lineup is a little strange. Will iPhone 15, currently at $699 dropped to $599 when they announce iPhone 17?
The most interesting part is of course the Modem. We will have to wait and see how it perform.
I know, but the official specs and comparison page explicitly only say Qi (with 7.5 W) for the 16e where they say MagSafe and Qi2 (with 25 W) for the iPhone 16. The comparison page is also lacking the MagSafe symbol for the 16e.
True but the alignment magnets of MagSafe and Qi2 were a huge quality of life improvement. You are probably better off just using USB to charge this one
That's an insult to all of the engineering that went into Qi.
The Magsafe specification was an attempt to create the new Lightning connector ecosystem that backfired spectacularly and blew up in Apple's face. It's nothing more than magnets and DRM layered on top of a regular Qi charger.
Naturally Apple used the DRM to limit the charging speeds of their phones when paired with regular Qi chargers. There's a practical reason for this which is how Apple tried to justify their outrageous licensing fee to implement Magsafe.
Unfortunately for Apple, manufacturers mostly said no to Magsafe licensing and Apple's user based complained to Apple that their phones wouldn't charge at the rated speeds of the Qi chargers they bought.
This put Apple in an awkward position where they could tell their users to only buy MagSafe devices, compromise on safety to appease users, or give up on Magsafe being proprietary. Thankfully they chose the later.
Qi2 isn't Magsafe, Qi2 incorporated Magsafe because it improves the standard.
Don't let Apple marketing fool you into thinking Apple is doing this altruistically.
> With the blessing of competitors, Apple is about to change the Qi wireless standard itself. It’s contributing to a new version of Qi that works much like MagSafe — magnets, authentication, and all.
"Qi2 is based on Magsafe" is not the same as "Apple is... contributing to a new version of Qi"
Your statement implies that Qi2 used Magsafe as a starting point or that it's primarily based on Magsafe. Your statement is inaccurate and would lead people to think that Qi2 was mostly an Apple design.
> Your statement implies that Qi2 used Magsafe as a starting point or that it's primarily based on Magsafe. Your statement is inaccurate and would lead people to think that Qi2 was mostly an Apple design.
You'd be wrong, though. Apple is on the WPC membership and has heavy influence over their spec definitions. They do this with many standards. They sit on the standards body as contributing members, and influence the specifications in ways they see as beneficial. They did this with USB (especially USB-C), they do this with MIPI standards, and they do this with WPC.
When standards organizations move too slow (which, is pretty much always), companies like Apple will move to make proprietary versions of a thing usually based on drafts of standards that are taking too long.
I think their point was that the wireless MagSafe was basically a copy-paste of Qi, so it wasn't "mostly an Apple design" to begin with. "Qi2 is a copy-paste of MagSafe" (or "Qi2 is based on MagSafe") makes it sound a bit like they threw out the original Qi in favor of Apple's completely home-grown alternative, which comes with inaccurate connotations of who actually did the important work.
It's subjective how important the history is and how important Apple's contributions are, but that seems to be what they were getting at.
Assuming they do it correctly. There was a series of Pixel cases (the 9s, I think?) where they used the same alignment between the Pro and non-Pro Pixels on the case, despite the coils not being in the same location on the actual phones... which apparently caused poor/non-existent charging and excessive heat.
> The most interesting part is of course the Modem.
In addition, they are said to have replaced the WiFi/Bluetooth chip with one developed in-house.
> Apple Inc.’s ambitious plan to create in-house components for its devices will include switching to a homegrown chip for Bluetooth and Wi-Fi connections starting next year, a move that will replace some parts currently provided by Broadcom Inc.
In this specific case, I imagine the system is much more secure. The Broadcom chip and Qualcomm chip each represented their own separate attack surface. Even without hacking the AP those chips were still a problem.
There's a number of firmware jobs on their website at the moment. All of them ask for C or C++ experience - I haven't seen anything that's asking for Rust or Embedded Swift experience.
> One major development snag involves the software used to power the modem, some of which was acquired from Intel. The Intel code wasn’t up to the task, and most of it had to be rewritten from scratch, people involved in the project said. As Apple engineers sought to add new features, existing capabilities would break, and the modem wouldn’t work properly.
The patch notes for Qualcomm's big zero day exploit last year certainly gives the impression that this was yet another example of a memory safety error.
> According to the patch instructions, the fix works by adding direct memory access handle references.
Hard-to-differentiate product offerings tend to drive people into the waiting arms of higher-spec (and cost) products, while still allowing a company to make a claim for a certain pricepoint.
You must let go. This not happening anymore. That boat sailed for all OEMs. It will just lead to heartache and defeat and frustration or a combo of these.
I think Eric Migicovsky, the founder of Pebble, has decided he will have a go at an iPhone 13 mini sized android phone, since nothing exists in that space anymore.
Android rather than iPhone, but I've also recently given up hoping Apple would release a small phone. I recently bought a used iPhone 13 mini when my minor-regret-sized SE 2022 started playing up and I saw that all the rumours pointed at this 16E being huge.
On the bright side, when your mini dies, there will likely be better flips out there. The Z Flip 6 isn't that bad currently, and I really did enjoy how much pocket space it saved, but if you're stuck to Apple it's another 2 years before they release their attempt.
I have considered flip phones as a replacement for a mini but it's just not the same thing at all when it comes to a smartphone.
It makes the phone less durable for a useless screen size, its pocket ability isn't much better because it is just bulkier (easier to enter in small pockets, but bigger deformation and feel) and it's just less convenient because you have to open it anytime you want to use it.
There is no replacement for a small phone, some manufacturer has to do it.
I was considering Samsung Z Flip 6 or Motorola Razr 50 Ultra (sold as Razr+ in the US), but both are almost twice as thick as iPhone 13 Mini. That doesn't spark joy.
its not only about size but related to this smartphone weight. I find iphones quite heavy. Used to have iphone XS and now having iphone 13 mini and enjoying it more. Flip phones are even heavier.
I don't think there is any mainstream Android phone available that is of 12/13 Mini size. In fact there might not be a mainstream one that is smaller than the current base iPhone size.
Regarding your second one, I have some good news though: ASUS Zenfone 10 is smaller than iPhone 16 by 1.1mm x 3.5mm, Samsung S24 (base model) is 0.6mm x 1.0mm smaller, and Sony Xperia 5 V is only slightly bigger.
I know there used to be such a huge range of Android phone sizes, that there was likely to be a phone in the size you wanted, and you acknowledged that the phones you were listing were not the same size as the 12/13 mini...
But the Sony suggested is slightly bigger than the iPhone 16 in 2/3 of the dimensions and this comment thread is lamenting how big the iPhone 16 is! I think people who see the iPhone 16 as so large it is not an option are unlikely to consider switching to Android for an even larger phone.
It's a shame, because Sony used to make smaller phones with only slightly lower specs than their flagship phones. I also still associate them with making sensibly-sized alternatives, even though they don't anymore.
iPhone size is already too big (imho!). So Sony one is anything but that. Asus ZFs? Nope, anything but mainstream. These never released in many geographies including my country - the most populous on the planet and no it was not even too costly for here - and yes, they already have a sales/distributor channel/base here so they didn't have to setup anything.
There really isn't anything mainstream out there at all. Why? Majority, clear majority, of people rejected smaller size phones sadly.
For anyone else whose browser is configured to not ask where to save files before downloading, you may notice that the site linked above initiates a download of a MIDI file named "Jive_Talkin.mid." It does appear to be safe according to VirusTotal: https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/896eadff63581cb1a3f0e354...
They have Macs they call Macbook Airs, but their Macbooks look like "Air" Macbooks, they really should have swapped the names on those models long ago.
The 12" MacBook Abomination was a short-lived, badly-designed, performance-limited computer. Apple doesn’t sell them anymore, and modern Airs are very respectable computers.
I thought with the emphasis on repair within the geek community today we'd go for the Macintosh Portable, which is so modular and repairable that Jean-Louis Gassée was able to build it directly on stage when introducing it.
At this point there’s only really one thing I want from an iPhone and that’s an option for a 12/13 mini sized device again. Surely those phones didn’t sell so few that it’s not worth doing at all?
The iPhone 13 Mini all by itself sold about the half of the rate of the entire Google Pixel lineup. There is a market for small phones from a reputable manufacturer.
The thing I'd add is that Apple often achieves what it does by doing less. People assume that because Apple makes great things that they can make a lot of different great things. But that's where a lot of other companies falter: they make too many different things to really make a few great things.
Small phones are also difficult. Memory, processors, and batteries don't shrink. For an iPhone mini, they're going to be shipping essentially the same chips taking up the same amount of space. That space is going to have to come at the expense of things like the battery and cooling. It's a lot easier to engineer something with looser tolerances. If you have a giant phone, it's easy to have extra room to keep the phone cool and stuff in a battery.
It also probably meant limiting some choices for the rest of the iPhone lineup. Apple wants to be able to re-use components and to some extent it's going to mean that Apple either has to make choices that work for both a 6.1" and 5.4" form factor or do separate things.
There is some demand for an iPhone mini. I love the iPhone mini. I also see the challenge for Apple.
I think there's also a reason why we haven't seen a successful Android mini phone. It's hard to make a mini phone and the sales numbers are comparatively small.
But maybe we'll see an iPhone mini in a few years time. If Apple can create an integrated CPU/modem/WiFi/Bluetooth chip, that could end up saving a decent amount of space while also reducing power requirements. Maybe we'll be able to go SIM-less around the world and that could save space.
At the same time, it's hard to make the same number of people make another, more challenging form factor and it's hard to scale out with more people too. Plus, do you put your best engineers on the hardest project (the mini) when it's only 3% of sales? Or do you hire new, less experienced, possibly lower skilled people for that and hope you don't put out a product that isn't good?
It's a tough challenge for a tiny amount of sales which, ultimately, aren't going to decide to leave Apple for Android where they also can't get a small phone.
> they make too many different things to really make a few great things
While true of a company like Samsung I don't think this explains the lack of a small iPhone. Apple is only going for simple relative to someone like Samsung. They now have FIVE current models, spanning what is effectively two screen sizes (but actually four, which is worse, because now you're spreading yourself across FOUR form factors minimum.)
So even Apple isn't playing by the "too many different things" rule. In reality they could accomplish all this with two models: a big one and a small one. Add in a "mini" size and now you have three models, plus much better variety.
I won't quibble about what is best for Apple's bottom line though; I assume they know better than me. But I will quibble about neglecting what people are asking for while giving them things they aren't asking for.
> Small phones are also difficult.
No, they aren't. It used to be that big phones were difficult. Then screens got cheaper, and now they choose BIG every. single. time. They don't choose big because it's easy, they choose it because it sells better.
> why are phones getting larger as battery and semiconductor tech continues to improve?
I don't doubt that the average phone has grown in size, the base iPhone has stayed roughly the same size for 7 years at this point. The 16 is only 0.15"x0.03"x0.01" larger than the iPhone X from 2017 and the base iPhone peaked in height and width all the way back in 2019 with the iPhone 11.
I think the simple answer is that they've pretty much found the sweet spot and even if there are people out there who want a smaller phone, most of them would still rather have the same size phone with more capability.
I just wish there'd be a modern phone with the same form factor as the 2013 Moto X.
Actually I see that the Jelly Max is extremely close in size to the 2013 Moto X. Maybe it will be my future phone.
I had a couple of Max models but went back down to regular size because it was too big. However, Mini is just too small for me to handle well any more. I make too many mistakes on the smaller on-screen keyboard, and forget reading on it without putting on my glasses first.
I could't care less what size other people use, and I use social media maybe half an hour a day, if that. The regular sized iPhones are the happy size for my older eyes and thumbs.
A handful of years ago, before anyone had figured out how to properly optimize for attention, we all had small-screen phones. The “small phone” problem is really just that it’s not as addictive. Apple wants you to spend more time on-screen [0] and so do you [1.] I really hope you’re not thinking about spending less time on-screen. Technology companies love you and care about you. They usually know what’s best. You should probably just get a bigger screen.
[0] see: massive financial incentives, developer tooling to help maximize engagement, product design focused on extended use, notoriously useless screen time feature etc
[1] we don’t have exact mini sales, but estimates are they were around 6% of total iPhone sales (aka: low, but billions a year in revenue, enough to keep barring other incentives) - more revenue than many other Apple products or the SE, for example. Even if you’re Apple you don’t axe billions in revenue for nothing!
> I really hope you’re not thinking about spending less time on-screen.
Your sarcastic tone reminds me of a Steve Jobs interview.
> In 2010, a New York Times reporter had a conversation that revealed a lot about the life of the founder of Apple. Nick Bilton commented, “Your kids must love the iPad, right?” After the launch of the device. Jobs replied, “They haven't used it. We limit the amount of technology our children use at home. "
Yeah, they know what it is that they are doing to the world. And they do not care, profits > humanity.
The best part about my 12 mini is that it's such a pain to use sometimes on the modern web that it discourages unnecessary browsing. Alas, the battery was already subpar on it and now is quite bad, so I'll probably pick up this SE.
In the reviews I read, the 13 mini was a significant upgrade in battery life, compared with the 12 mini. Since your 12 mini is now old, even a used 13 mini (with good battery health) would probably be a significant upgrade. Apple battery replacements for these are not crazy prices either. A used but pristine 13 mini with battery replaced by Apple would probably be much, much cheaper than a 16e.
If I sound like I'm trying to influence you're decision, my apologies! I really disliked the size of the SE 2022, which I bought to replace the last really good Apple phone (SE 2016), and that was much smaller than the 16e. I should have gone straight to the 13 mini - I was put off by no bezels, Face ID, and I guess like a sucker I wanted to buy another SE because I liked the one I had so much. :)
Maybe the battery. I’m typing this on my 13 mini and it’s as fast as it’s ever been.
I still have apple care+ on mine. I knew they will probably never make a new one again. I use it without a case, so when I drop it break the screen or something, I just get an express replacement. There is a small fee ($100 or something) and I basically get a brand new iPhone mini. Hopefully their replacement stock last for a while.
The maximum battery capacity is showing 83%, which seems decent. The phone is over 3 years old now. And I love the Mini form factor. I want something that fits in my pocket...
I have two (personal and work); browsing websites is fine in a pinch, but it's not nearly as fast as the iPhone 16 Pro that's in my drawer right now and I run into more Safari crashes than before. (I blame the modern web for that, not the phone.)
If they can standardize their whole lineup around two sizes, regular and max, then I think it will be a very hard sell to add extra work and complexity for the production lines for a smaller size that sells both lower volumes and lower price. Don't get me wrong, I love the Mini and have one right now, but from a business management perspective I can totally see how getting rid of it makes sense.
Another aspect that I think is often missed is that the Mini physically cannot offer the same battery life as other iPhones. Many say they don't mind this, but over time as the battery life deteriorates, it becomes a pain point all the same. I think that is another aspect of why they don't like the small form factor.
Battery life deteriorating is only a pain point because they make it so users can't trivially service the battery themselves. It is amazing seeing the walk back over the years from sensible affordances to the consumer to binning those features behind expensive repairs. I still remember my ibook where you could pop out the keyboard with your fingers and pop out the battery with a dime. I remember when they released the unibody macbook and they gave you a simple clasp to access both the battery and the hard drive as they were anticipating consumers shifting to SSDs in the near future in 2010 and wanted to offer an affordance. Slowly that went away. The latch went away for a dozen small screws that are easy to strip and lose. Eventually the ability to change out the drive or the battery yourself went away too. Slippery slope of setting up user expectations for a worse version of the product in a few generations from certain standpoints. Sure it is faster but imagine if it was faster and also as serviceable as devices used to be. There isn't good reason for it other than to gouge you when you spec out your macbook at rates that are always at a convenient premium over today's prices for these hardware.
Exactly.
I had this MacBook. It is legendary, they made it at a great price point with most of the qualities and features of the more expensive Pros of the time.
It didn't last long, they axed it the next year, figuring they were leaving money on the table.
Its weakness was the terrible iGPU in the Intel chip, you couldn't do much serious graphical work with it until you would get the spinner of doom.
I think this is really "peak Apple" era. Most stuff they did after Jobs death is re-heated or poorly designed/conceived.
Apple is just a luxury brand nowadays because they have lost focus on the user, it's a bit maddening that they are getting so rich from it but I guess that's how it is...
> I think it will be a very hard sell to add extra work for the production lines for a smaller size
The Toyota Corolla sells 1 million units a year worldwide - it's totally practical and realistic to set up a production line to make 1 million devices a year.
Apple sells 200 million iphones a year.
That's why they're happy to make the iPhone 16, 16 Plus, 16 Pro, 16 Pro Max and 16e and offer them in 4-5 colours per model as well.
AFAIK it's 360px wide, the same as on larger phones. You can of course enable an accessibility option to take it down to 320px width, which was the iOS standard for almost a decade and only stopped being a standard iOS resolution when they killed off the iPod touch.
Well, in the case of Samsung, I imagine they would rather not want to in order to promote their Z Flip series instead. More compact than any Mini version would potentially be. Though I guess for the people who like their phones to be able to fit in their hand, it doesn't make much of a difference.
Same boat, though with battery replacements, I think what will actually do me in and force me to downgrade to a newer model will be when they stop supporting OS security upgrades. I'm perfectly happy to keep replacing the screen protector and battery until that point.
Eventually, Apple (and 3p developers) will abandon you, and you'll need to throw away a perfectly good phone and take another step on the treadmill.
I'm still hanging on to my perfectly working iPhone 7, while app developers tell me to fuck off left and right. It does everything I want a phone to do, but developers consider "old phones" to be icky and stop supporting them.
Ultimately, one of the cameras in my iPhone 7 failed, and I replaced it with an SE3 - which was indistinguishable from the 7 - but another issue was patches.
Yup - it was the same for me with the 2016 SE. Still runs perfectly fine, we're still doing the same old CRUD web shit for apps, but apparently now our apps are so much more advanced that there's no possible way they could keep supporting that "legacy" hardware.
I'm totally with you, with that article. It is terrible how owners of slightly-old hardware are treated by software developers. Leaving potentially millions of users out in the cold because they just can't be bothered to keep a maintenance branch around and backport a few fixes to it. For apps that are by and large not complicated. So much waste sacrificed at the altar of developer comfort!
Eventually yes, but the 13 is less than 3.5 years old and will likely receive iOS updates for another 3.5 years. And most apps support one or two iOS versions into the past. I agree it’s not ideal, but ~8 years of use isn’t that bad either.
I would have kept using mine if it didn't have issues dropping calls and also certain app incompatibilities that began to be frusterating. It is actually a lot better of an iphone than my newer SE2. It is much faster on the OS it runs than this SE2 on ios 15. Spotlight search is instantaneous on the old SE. On the SE2 it might hang in spotlight for 5 seconds or longer.
I'm still on iPhone 7+… It gets a new battery every 2-3 years and works great. I love how it has a big screen but feels much smaller and thinner in my pocket than any modern iPhone. I was really looking forward to this new "SE4", but the 7.5W charging and lack of magsafe is a deal breaker for a phone that in my country costs ~900 usd.
I have a 13 mini that is hanging on by a thread and you will pry it from my hand (because I can actually hold onto it). I'm actually considering finding a refub because I prefer my old-fashioned artillery to the 6.1".
The larger phones barely fit in pockets, fit poorly in running packs/biking gear and are just generally inconvienient for being active with them.
It might be a good idea to just buy the 13 mini. It's not like anything on phones got any better in the last 4 years. And it's still available, for roughly 30% less compared to before it was discontinued by Apple. Which might be the answer to your question actually.
Based on previous conversations on this topic, I think the issue is that people don't actually prioritise the mini size above all else.
In other words whatever size the audience is for a mini phone they are further fragmented into people who want a flagship phone vs mid range phone vs budget phone.
And those market segments are too small to make it worth Apple or even most android manufacturers effort.
Exactly. So many people commented on tech sites that they loved the mini sized device but didn’t buy it because they want a pro spec mini. Like there aren’t any trade offs by making the phone smaller. Apple arguably made the best small phone ever made and plenty of supposedly small phone lovers turned their nose up at it. Turns out even they value other things more than the size.
I'm still using my iphone12 mini and still holding out that someone makes a similar sized phone. I would love to see a slightly thicker version to accommodate a larger batter and no camera bump, but at this point a small, thick phone seems almost unimaginable.
I am actually optimistic that we might get the mini again now the 16e is priced at $599. There is a space for Mini at $499.
Part of the problem with Mini was its battery life. It seems 16e is improving on exactly that. Although I think it wont be 5.4" again since it was too small compared to the rest of the line up where it is usually 20% bigger screen to next size up.
I don’t think there is space, because the production costs of a mini model aren’t substantially lower. Remember that when the 12 mini launched, its price was the same as the 11, and the regular 12 got $100 more expensive.
The mini did exactly and precisely bump up the whole product range pricing. So the regular iPhone 12 got to $799 instead of $699. A 16e Mini will make the 16e product range starts at $499.
I just don’t think that a 16e mini at $499 would give Apple enough margin. The Face ID components are reportedly not cheap, OLED is also more expensive than LCD, they didn’t up the price to $599 just for fun.
OLED is not expensive and can be cheaper than LCD. There is nothing expensive about BOM in iPhone 16e. Face ID used in the current notch form is also not expensive. We are 7 years into FaceID component already. There are reason why Android could pay Qualcomm for SoC while still selling for $199. It is selling 16e at 14 price range with one camera less, which is actually a relatively expensive part in terms of BOM and extra GB of memory. Along with cost saving of its own modem, the $599 is there not to cannibalise sales on 16 which is the heavy margin product range.
Rumor is that the 17 will have an Air edition that will be thinner/lighter. It won't help the reach issues much but will make them nicer to hold for extended periods of time. IME the minis are nice because of both weight and the ability to comfortably use with one hand.
The Air model will be 6.6”. It will be lighter than the Plus model it replaces, but I wouldn’t necessarily expect it to be lighter than the regular models. And certainly not usable with one hand.
It's especially disappointing to see that they killed off the SE with this release, as it was the previous inexpensive and smaller option. The screen alone on this new 16e is larger across the diagonal than the entire device on the SE 3rd edition, and the SE famously had the traditional huge bezel.
Yes please. My new job just provided me with a new phone, but all the models are just too big. I guess I’ll get used to it, but I’d rather have the current features in a Mini body.
Apple leans its weight heavily on controversial smartphone changes and defines trends for the rest of the industry, even when it's not the first company to do so. When it removed the headphone jack, introduced the screen notch, or added a camera bump, everyone followed afterward despite the grumbling.
So keeping that in mind, regarding the modem, I remember prior comments about it being near-impossible or extremely difficult for Apple to cut out Qualcomm because of the decentralized network of mobile towers, operators, proprietary information, legacy cruft, edge cases, hardware and geographical testing, etc., which Qualcomm handles as part of its value-add. If Apple starts spearheading changes in how phone modems work, could we imagine mobile towers playing along and converging? Or is it more entrenched than that?
My iPhone SE 2 right next to me is charging on its Qi puck right now. The SE have never had Magsafe, which allows a phone to be charged aligned with magnets.
>If Apple starts spearheading changes in how phone modems work, could we imagine mobile towers playing along and converging? Or is it more entrenched than that?
Do You mean Telco Equipment vendor converging? Well first thing is that 4g / 5G or 3GPP is an open standard so anyone could implement it. Second is that there are only a few Telco Equipment vendor left already. There will still be insane amount of testing required to be done even if everyone were to use the same equipment. The amount of variables such as spectrum, regulations requirements, physical space and density as well as weather difference.
I don't think anyone thought it was literally impossible, just really, really hard and with a ton of corner cases and micro-optimizations necessary. But remember, they've been at this for a long time now: they bought Intel's modem business in 2019 and Intel presumably had several years worth of work on it before that. I guess this is the year when they've ground out enough of the bugs to at least ship it on a non-flagship device.
They really did themselves dirty calling it a notch, drawing attention to the loss of space. They should have used something like "extra screen ears" - implying you are getting some extra space around the sensors.
Let's see... it's replacing the SE, which is no longer on Apple's website. It's more expensive than the SE, at $599 vs $429. It's a pretty substantial hardware upgrade over the SE, including something like 75% more battery life by Apple's numbers, but it's also noticeably bigger.
The price hike is the major turn off point. Even as a non Apple person I was on the verge of getting the new "SE" if it's in the price range of the old SE line up.
The market for a cheaper iphone like this has always been just buying a 4 year old phone for like $0-small few hundred from your carrier. Makes no sense for apple to push a new product in this segment when their own supply eats it. And all they really offer in the se is a new old iphone anyhow making use of old components they have spare inventory available or on order from their vendors remaining supply lines.
These types of "budget" phones that Apple does are for people who can't/won't buy the flagship (because too expensive) but wouldn't buy something second-hand either.
There are a LOT of people like that. It is not rational at all; they would rather buy something shittier for their money than get more value. My grandparents are like that.
To buy in the second-hand market you need to have some knowledge about how phones compare in the first place, even if you use a platform that minimizes the risks.
So, it's not the same market at all, and Apple is pushing their luck even more with a pricing way too high for what is essentially a 3 years old phones at best (the chip makes little difference to the typical user of these phones).
>It is not rational at all; they would rather buy something shittier for their money than get more value. My grandparents are like that.
It's entirely rational. I bought plenty of used phones, and even repaired them myself because I couldn't afford new ones. Would not do that again.
The risk of getting scammed, or getting a phone with issues is too high. Both have happened to me in the past. It can even be dangerous if someone swapped out the battery with a cheapo fire hazard. A lot of resale prices are also simply too high to be worth it.
Now imagine your grandparents. As you said, the exact model/chip doesn't matter, any phone is good enough. What they're buying is an appliance that will last at least the warranty period (2 years, EU), but likely much longer. Basically piece of mind at a fixed price. They won't get scammed (online) or ripped off (used in a physical store) if they buy directly from Apple.
I'm not talking about second hand. I'm talking about new from the carrier old model phones. Here is the verizon page for iphone 14s they have, you can get them for 0 down 0 a month through some deal from the cell phone plan. Apple can't compete with free.
A lot of people are eligible for carrier subsidized upgrades every few years as well. When I did this I could have gotten my SE2 for free from verizon from my plan. I chose to pay like $200 premium to get it with the highest storage sku.
It isn't just verizon either. Here is metropcs offering free iphone 13s for new customers:
When the iphone 1 came out on AT&T it was initially sold like that and basically no one had it. Everyone still used their free full keyboard phone with unlimited texting (another american only cellphone market concept that prevented whatsapp from ever lifting off the ground here). Once they got it off that deal and had it with multiple carriers that could offer a carrier subsidized phone, then the dam broke and basically everyone had an iphone or an android phone overnight (same carrier subsidized deals available there, usually better).
As someone who uses Android as the main device, I have an iPhone SE as a backup phone when travelling. It is a nice phone by itself, and allows me to access Apple services in case I need to.
When the time comes, I'll probably look for a used iPhone 14/15 instead of a new iPhone 16e. To much money for my purpose.
And the OG SE was significantly cheaper, even after adjusting for inflation. But it only received 6.5 years of regular iOS updates. It was released mid-cycle with iOS 9, and iOS 15 is the last supported version. You may be counting the later security updates, but that doesn’t help with app compatibility.
I dunno, the old SE wasn’t a mini by any means - this is .3 inches taller and .2 inches wider, so yes bigger but not like a different size class altogether
The SE had a pretty huge bezel though. That's an annoying feature of it, but at the same time it means that the screen was actually much smaller than the 16e's screen, and therefore (depending on how you hold it) easier to use one handed, which is what most people who want a small phone are looking for.
This is a lot bigger. IIRC the mini is smaller than the old SE, and this is bigger than the mini. It's not a "plus" sized iPhone, but that would be skipping up two size classes. It has gone from small to regular.
Easily the nicest form factor phone they ever produced. You can reach the entire screen with the thumb in one hand without awkwardly flopping the phone onto the thumb in the farthest corner. It is smaller than your wallet. The battery lasted forever because the screen was small and not that bright or nearly so pixel dense.
Too bad the management consultants killed such a technology.
I kinda want the 1st-gen 4" SE screen on a bezel-less modern phone. That'd really fit nicely in a pocket. Would modern apps and modern websites be usable on it?... not really, but maybe I don't need them anyway.
There’s no conspiracy. Not enough people like small phones. Apple’s biggest spike happened once they ditched the iPhone 5 size and went to bigger phones with the iPhone 6.
I’m willing to bet it was some people in management that missed the small phones and fought to re-introduce a smaller form factor phone. They succeeded in making the best small phones ever made and rounding down approximately nobody bought them. Blame the general public for killing the form factor.
Apple sells how few Mac Pros a year and still sells them? They could ship another couple skus. One of the largest tech companies on the face of the earth and you are telling me they can't ship a cellphone.
Think of the QC modem as an API and that API is limited to what QC wants apple or anyone else using their modem to do. The firmware is pushed by QC and then apple can use it to update it’s modems of QC when it does it’s now updates.
Now with C1 that API is designed at apple and in a way that their soc team wants to get the best battery life along. So the modem can be turned off / on updated request data signals etc in a more efficient manner with the soc. On top of that apple probably cleaned up parts of the modem that they probably didn’t feel were needed for their iPhones that maybe QC were obligated to include because of the way their modems had to be designed and sold.
Now do this to Bluetooth and Wi-Fi and put everything in the soc and you are going to be getting solid gains sooner than later.
This transition is very exciting cause I’m hoping this happens to MacBooks as well.
I thoroughly enjoyed the ATP podcast discussion on this.
Sounds like the base assumption is Apple is incapable of having decent tethering even as they control the whole ecosystem, including special protocols in-between their product they design 100% from hardware to software.
But somehow pushing the modem in the MacBook solves this...because Apple is then good at managing transient network connections in macos, hooking to complex mesh networks on protocols they don't control ?
To my eyes Apple being unable to realize these dreamlike expectations is probably the very reason MacBooks don't have modems.
>But somehow pushing the modem in the MacBook solves this...because Apple is then good at managing transient network connections in macos, hooking to complex mesh networks on protocols they don't control ?
A cell modem is mostly just another uplink, with all the hard stuff being done in the modem. The user doesn't need to do anything to use it. Tethering requires extra stuff to happen: the user has to initiate the connection, the iPhone has to reconfigure its networking, and I imagine there's a bunch of security layers that must be passed through before tethering is allowed. It's 2 entirely different scenarios.
You choose to simplify how to integrate the modem into the system while digging deeper into how tethering happens.
Why doesn't having another separate subsystem running it's own OS managing the cell connection also have network switching implications (something deciding the connection is now the primary one, just like it does for tethering), security issues (it's a know attack vector on phones as well), power management issues etc ?
The iPhone 3G for instance was a piece of crap network connection wise, it would drop calls, lose signal, memory leak at the border of the two systems etc. Networking with a cell subsystem isn't trivial.
IOS was built from the ground to handle cellular networking, and the whole stack is optimized for that, including sandboxing network connections and not allowing server type applications or anything that directly tries to mess with the networking layer in a way that is not explicitly authorized.
Coming from a mature OS built from a completely different paradigm is going to require a lot more effort. In particular macos has a whole legacy of programs doing almost whatever they want.
Apple _can_ just slap a cell networking subsystem in it and let it crash and burn whenever something unexpected happens or the user gets out of the defined boundaries of when it should work (like depleting system memory), but that doesn't sound like a great brand strategy to me and is not what people seem to be expecting. Microsoft will be on board with it, but I don't see Apple.
I think that qualifies as what I asked for, thanks. I appreciate the engagement, and am perhaps a bit less optimistic about the kinds of tradeoffs that might need to be made with cellular on macOS.
> Apple is incapable of having decent tethering even as they control the whole ecosystem
Are they, though? Tethering from my MacBook to my iPhone or iPad is a pretty seamless experience, to the point I don't even think about it. And sometimes I get home from a cafe and forget I'm even tethering until I notice my iPhone battery is lower than expected. And this isn't Apple, but I don't even notice I'm not on my home LAN because of tailscale.
It's definitely significantly easier than dealing with built in WWAN devices & ModemManager on my linux laptop. (Or Windows, when I used it on that same hardware.)
If your sentiment is the most common, including a modem in MacBooks makes only sense for the tiniest of tiniest of user slice, and with Apple barely cattering to pro users, I can't imagine them investing further to solve a problem that isn't as simple as just slapping an extra part in the machine (which they traditionally hate).
On my side it was 90% there, a bit lagging to connect and totally failing from time to time , once in a week perhaps, but workable otherwise. The argument on the podcast was for having a 100% great solution like it does on the iPad, assuming an internal modem on macos would rainbows and ponnies.
That's hard to believe. Even Quectel (random Chinese IoT modem manufacturer, which is also using Qualcomm modem SoCs) gets to have Qualcomm modem source code. I know, because they ship it modified with their own AT commands implemented and other changes. If random chinese company can ship modified Qualcomm modem firmware, Apple surely can, too. :D
Massive chunks (millions of lines) of Qualcomm modem firmware (the part running on Hexagon DSP cores) are even leaked on github for anyone to see.
Apple is bound to have uptodate and probably even completely source available Qualcomm firmware at its engineers' fingertips. And they have more leverage than random Chinese IoT manufacturer, to request ability to modify it as they see fit. And they'll certainly have at least the parts that are relevant for the control you're talking about.
The decision most likely comes down to politics (any help optimizing qualcomm modems directly benefits everyone using them, and that's a lot of android phones out there), and not these kinds of technical issues.
Very cool to see a new entry into the modem market. Obviously not available for anyone other than Apple, but I’m interested to see how it shapes up over time much like their SoC has done.
This has been a long time coming since Apple bought Intels modem division several years ago.
I’m also interested to see if it enables cellular in laptops. Afaik the limiting factor has been that Qualcomm charge a percentage of device rate , which would be exorbitant for a laptop. Having it be in house might allow for it now.
Why? It uses a linear zoom like a classic lens design inside and embeds an optical 2x zoom lens into a smaller area.
From the press release:
> With an integrated 2x Telephoto, users have the equivalent of two cameras in one, and can zoom in with optical quality to get closer to the subject and easily frame their shot.
This is the first time they use linear (classic zoom) design. The previous one was a 90-degree periscope design. From 16 Pro Max specifications:
> 12MP 5x Telephoto: 120 mm, ƒ/2.8 aperture and 20° field of view, 100% Focus Pixels, seven-element lens, 3D sensor-shift optical image stabilization and autofocus, tetraprism design. 5x optical zoom in, 2x optical zoom out; 10x optical zoom range
There's absolutely no reason for them to introduce a new mechanical camera system. They previously marketed their cropping of the center 12MP of their 48MP sensor as 2x optical zoom. They will use the same method here.
Strongest argument that they didn't is that adding something like that is absolutely a thing Apple would have talked about at length in the press release. They love getting to do extensive "here's something cool that 'only Apple could do'" segments. (And we love to make fun of them for it.)
It's probably the same as the 2x zoom in the iPhone 16 line. The 1x pictures are a 48MP sensor that does some pixel-combining to output a 12MP image. The 2x pictures are a crop of 12MP in the center of the sensor, that doesn't do any combining. So it's still "optical", but it's lower-quality than the 1x.
Optical zoom changes significantly how out-of-focus areas looks like. For anyone doing photography (with actual cameras and actual lenses), calling crop an "optical zoom" is a lie from Apple.
If you have an actual physical zoom lens, cropping a zoomed out photo produces a different result than zooming in with the lens in the first place. Even when your camera/sensor doesn't move. It's all physics yo
I think it's not "zooming with the sensor", but has a slim lens stack to enable optical 2x zoom. The whole system is also PDAF, so they need the movement anyway.
No, it’s literally a digital crop exactly like the other sensors that use 48MP sensors. There’s nothing magic here. I would be shocked if it’s anything different than the exact identical camera used in the base iPhone 15, quite frankly. The cheaper versions never use the latest hardware for the cameras.
They did the modem because it's actually cheaper for them. They already bought the Intel division and had engineers work on it for over 5 years, so it's already sunk costs at best. Since they came up with a working design, it is FOR SURE cheaper for them to use it than to buy something from Qualcomm.
I'm a bit suspicious about this, because if it was truly great, they would have waited longer to advertise it as a must have feature for their "pro" devices.
It's sort of beta testing the thing on the lower volume product with less tech literate people who won't complain too much because of some weird connectivity issues.
If it performs, Apple is going to make even more money on the next round of iPhone, not that Apple needs any more money but you know, if that could stop them from increasing the price, that could be nice.
If it were an optical zoom then it would be able to take 24MP and 48MP shots like it can in 1x mode, but it is limited to 12MP which highly suggests its just a crop.
> I’m also interested to see if it enables cellular in laptops
Are WWAN cards not a thing already? I've never looked much into them at all, but they do seem to exist, at least (and seem to be around $20-$50 and plug into M.2 slots)
And when laptops do have a spare M.2 slot it's usually intended for an SSD only and is not the right kind of M.2 slot for a cellular (or WiFi) card. And of course, you'd need antennas. So the whole laptop needs to be designed around accommodating cellular connectivity, with significant changes to the internal layout.
I agree that every device should have a cellular modem option. I am just annoyed that no matter how much I am willing to spend on Apple's top-end road warrior product, I cannot get an option available from Dell.
I'm probably a small minority, but I would trade my phone in for a clamshell/dumbphone tomorrow if my Macbook had 5g. Separately, tethering seems to blow through my phone battery.
I think the long term plan is for the modem to be part of the SOC. That would probably lead to even better efficiency and cost/space savings. If that happens I fully expect the modem to end up in the M series as well.
Is this a replacement for the "SE" line? It seems similar to the previous SE models in that it's cheaper, uses an older body, and is released in an off month. The marketing copy in the OP also compares it to the older SE phones.
I am guessing that's the end of the small phone line at Apple.
I have been keeping my 12 Mini in as pristine condition as possible. I often keep the phone in my vest pocket and really hate the size of … well … anything larger than the Mini. Best form factor ever for me.
It wouldn't be crazy for them to offer a mini only every several generations. If the problem is that there isn't enough demand to justify design and tooling, it would make sense to let demand grow for 5-6 years, then release a new mini that all small phone lovers will buy.
Yup, Apple still makes a new iPad mini every 3-4 years, despite it being clearly worse on paper than the mainline iPad. But the last version was mostly a spec bump.
Yes, this replaces the SE which was not really that small. The SE screen was small but the case not so small. This 16e is less that 0.25 inches bigger in the diagonal.
It’s funny that the marketing for this is about introducing a new member of the family. But it doesn’t also mention that one other member has been disowned/excommunicated
From a marketing perspective, it's probably ancient history. They've had three rounds of iPhone launches between now and the launch of the 13 mini, and the 13 mini was discontinued a year and a half ago. Even if the 16e had been a mini-sized phone (or available in this size and a mini size), it would have been weird for marketing to highlight that market segment and draw attention to that 1.5-year absence.
In the past, Qualcomm was infamous for high licensing fees.
However, part of the process of creating an open industry standard like 4G/5G is getting a legally binding commitment from the patent holders to license standards essential patents to all takers on "reasonable" terms.
> If the patent holder refuses upon request to license a patent that has become essential to a standard, then the standard-setting organization must exclude that technology.
I imagine the 2G network they are talking about is GSM, which is a 2G open standard created in the EU and used internationally.
> It was first implemented in Finland in December 1991. By the mid-2010s, it became a global standard for mobile communications achieving over 90% market share, and operating in over 193 countries and territories.
I'm interested to see how these perform at the edge of reception, which still is a massive drain. Before I had an iPhone with satellite reception, turning on airplane mode when hiking was essential for battery life.
My current iPhone (and I had to check which one I have...) actually is much more sticky to satellite. It wont switch back to cellular immediately.
Actually I like "hmf" despite my usual distaste for the dilution of "ph" to "f". The "ph" in "hmph" seems incidental, so it does not trigger me, I guess!
There is a highway sign somewhere on I-95 for "Fenix Ave", which took me a while to realize was a vicious act committed by illiterates against "Phoenix Avenue".
They design the chip that powers the phone. Apple designs their chips to include exactly the IO they need, and nothing more. The A18 chip does not have the IO to support USB-3 speeds on the port. No A18 device supports USB 3 speeds.
It's maddening but it is a question of cost; it's just pennies, and Apple is for sure not passing on the savings to us.
Backup/restore is one common usecase. It's painfully slow with current speed. AFAIK only Pro model support USB3 speeds. Someone more knowledgable can maybe explain if there is any technical/cost reason behind it (I honestly don't see one ).
I believe most people do iCloud backup/restore nowadays. I only do manual backup/restore once every few years when I upgrade my iPhone (even then, I could probably do that via iCloud also)
The only issue is now you pay for icloud for life. Terrible service just try pulling a lot of photos off of it. Basically can't be done because no matter the tool you try you get connection timeout issues after a couple dozen photos. I have like 60k photos on a family members icloud account that we can't get at all. Stuck paying icloud now for that person. Frankly at this point I'd pay for physical media mailed if that were an option.
Yep. And the incentive at Apple is to keep making people use more cloud and have them pay more for it so they can say they make more profit from the service division.
It's quite bad, because it's a rug pull that Apple did. Before all the cloud/service nonsense, what differentiated Apple from the rest was your ability to fully own and manage their devices easily without having to rely on some "forever" subscription.
If people wanted some cloud crap, they could have gone with Google or even Microsoft. But current Apple doesn't care, it cares more about money than a fundamental philosophy that sets them apart.
> what differentiated Apple from the rest was your ability to fully own and manage their devices easily without having to rely on some "forever" subscription.
I'm not sure that's ever been true of the iPhone. Apple's app store is the only way to install software, you're tied to their cloud from day 1. Its not a paid subscription that you're locked into, but they make sure everyone pays in some way.
why wouldn't it be cost? even if it's only a few cents per unit, they're still going to sell millions of these, it all adds up and the best place to cut costs is in the places where most people don't actually care.
The point here is to replace iPhone 15 which doesn't support Apple Intelligence without raising the lowest price point for an iPhone. Apple has made a bit of a blunder by selling hardware with such limited memory for so long, which gives them a large install base that doesn't support gen-ai tech. Of course, the urgency of upgrading depends on how bullish you are on gen-ai.
I'm not sure if running any local model on smartphones make sense right now for most of the people. I played with many tiny llm models on ollama and only 14b models can feel to be usable - otherwise why not just run any app that do inference in cloud and run SOTA models? Even o4-mini feels more usable than those tiny models on smartphones - apple would have to ship iphones with 24GB RAM but inference would still be slower than those in the cloud. Paying $200 yearly subscription for chatgpt/claude/perplexity/gemini still seems cheaper than buying new iPhone just for that.
I wish though they would ship some beefy apple tv/mac mini/router with 32GB RAM that can work not only as private llm but also private iCloud, vpn, router, pihole, etc
> I'm not sure if running any local model on smartphones make sense right now for most of the people
It probably makes sense for simpler tasks like summarizing text messages/email that you might not necessarily want to send off to a third party that has a "move fast and break things" approach to data privacy
This device looks like a technology testing mule for apple, and with that price point it's guaranteed to sell boatloads.
I think being able to cram this amount of new tech (a new camera, a new modem) for a new device is good for apple. I believe this will play out well, and this tech will graduate the so-called flagships in a couple of years.
It seems that this will cannibalize iPhone 16 sales - it's $200 cheaper, same form factor and internals, with the only difference being the camera, which if you care about you go for the Pro model. However, the price makes for a much more appealing upgrade for anyone who has an older iPhone
>, with the only difference being the camera, which if you care about you go for the Pro model.
Some people may care a little extra for an ultrawide lens and spending more for the cheaper iPhone 16 with 2 lenses of regular + ultrawide is enough for that. Don't have to get the more expensive Pro model.
The Pro model adds a 3rd lens for optical "true" telephoto instead of digitized "fake" telephoto and increases the resolution on the ultrawide.
It's also not clear from from the Apple press release if the 16e has a macro mode. The regular iPhone 16 (not Pro) has macro.
Which is why this came out in February, after most of the sales of the iPhone 16 are done.
Which is also why we will probably see the discontinuation of the regular iPhone 16 this Fall when the iPhone 17 is introduced, with this 16e staying on at the same price for an extra year.
While I'm not an expert, betting on the older model staying at the same price point until after the next model is released is a fairly safe bet, if you don't get an ever bigger discount once the next version comes out in the fall. Unless their own modem fails horribly, it seems they will continue with the new modem on the 17, driving the 16e price down.
I do not expect the 16e to reduce in price for at last 18 months. Apple has been tightening the screws on its prices. Also, the c1 modem is not coming to every single device Apple makes this year. Qualcomm announced that there is a deal for new iPhone launches until 2026. We're not done yet with Qualcomm and Apple.
There should never have been a "Pro" line in the first place.
It's all about creating desire through marketing to make people spend more on the ladder.
The iPhone 4 had stainless steel frame, yet they made a big deal of it with the X and subsequent "Pro" generation when it was a standard "feature" that set them appart for success in the first place.
It's crazy how much bullshit Apple have been selling since their financiarisation.
Or MacBooks not having touch screens, or iPads being unable to run macOS / macOS apps even if you buy the $350 keyboard that gives it the same exact inputs as a MacBook, or iPads with modems being unable to place calls.
There's all sorts of limitations that seem less like thoughtful design and more like holding back the devices just that bit to make you want another device. You can't just want an iPad Pro, how will you run desktop apps? You can't just want an iPad Mini, how will you call people?
Well, at least the iPads can function as calculators now.
It's funny how iPads are marketed as laptop replacements, but everyone with an iPad has a laptop too. Especially the Apple fans who tell you it's a laptop replacement.
Now that Mac Mini is smaller, it's almost viable as iPad sidecar to run MacOS and Linux VMs. The ultimate dongle, with "I should be a hypervisor" graffiti.
Pixel Tablet with GrapheneOS has less limitations and will soon have Linux VMs, but lacks a keyboard travel case, and has been discontinued.
Can also emulate a PC in WASM to run Linux with a huge performance hit.
But I'm not even talking about Linux stuff, just basic use cases. Like a website somehow doesn't work with the iPad/iPhone, even if you forcibly request the desktop version. (YouTube creator studio live streaming is one example, or random airliners' in-flight video sites.) You need to unzip, manipulate, re-zip, and email something. Putting stuff on a USB stick for a print shop. Doing taxes. Running some Mac/Windows-only software.
> Now that Mac Mini is smaller, it's almost viable as iPad sidecar
How I wish Apple would work to make this better than the current state. Currently it's very ugly (bad scaling, weird res, weird bars around screen), high latency, needs some configuration...
Just let me plug in a cable and it should immediately become a display. (with video over DP?)
You can record videos for later playback on the AVP, in case you care. There's also UWB and magsafe on the vanilla 16. And the dynamic island and the camera control button. But it's mostly little things, which many people probably don't care about.
Currently, this is roughly true. But there's a decent chance it will have a killer app within the next ~5 years, and then adoption will grow quickly. At that point, it would be nice to have a small library of videos/photos that were taken with the AVP in mind.
Regardless of the AVP's success, there will probably be some AR/VR device that becomes popular, and can read this format in the future.
VR is not usable if it's not ultralight on account of the physical pain the weight of the headset causes. Of course the AVP is the worst for this as it's made of metal and glass.
Try it in the store. If it's anything like my 12 mini, the wide angle lens creates too much distortion to use for portraits. Occasionally I use it for landscape photos, but I wouldn't miss it much.
it's probably better to get iPhone 15 Pro even if second hand but good condition. On swappa you can get it for $550 and iPhone 15 Pro still support apple intelligence.
I bought a 16 Pro after the camera on my previous iPhone stopped working. Despite being a camera-led purchase - and I do care about the camera on my phone - I would have bought this 16e in a heartbeat over the Pro.
Indeed, this is the most notable aspect about this launch from a technology perspective. Apple's been working toward eliminating their Qualcomm dependency for nearly as long as the iPhone has existed.
> iPhone 16e will be available in white and black in 128GB, 256GB, and 512GB storage capacities, starting at $599 (U.S.) or $24.95 (U.S.) per month for 24 months.
Wait a sec. 24 * 24.95 = $598.80
They'll pay you twenty cents to take the financing?
What can you pay with if you're doing financing? If they don't accept credit cards, they make way more than twenty cents back with reduced fees. If you finance on an Apple Card you don't get the 3% cash back (last time I looked).
Unless interest rates drop to 0% they're obviously still losing money, but if you follow the logic of everywhere that allows BNPL[0] you make it up by having more purchases than you would otherwise.
Just more purchases period. If I don't have $500 but I wouldn't think twice about a $25/mo bill I'd be forced to buy an Android if financing wasn't an option.
60hz is really taking the piss at this point, if they must reserve 120hz for the Pro line then the least they could do is use 90hz further down the stack.
Apple is the king us using old kit and marketing it as innovative. On the flip side, 26 hours of video playback on battery is crazy long, and 60Hz is a big contributor to that.
I had an iPhone 13 Pro before downgrading to the 13 Mini. One of the reasons I bought the Pro was for the higher refresh screen, and while it's obviously noticeable when using it, it's not something I've ever missed even once.
I don't think he says it's not noticeable but that it doesn't matter.
I'm in the same boat; I can notice it but it doesn't make much difference for my phone use case so it's largely irrelevant.
It really depends on what you are doing with your phone.
In my point of view, the bummer is non LTPO display, preventing going down to 1hz which can save some battery if you use your phone for reading.
I have a Pro that I've set to only use 60 FPS (Accessibility / Motion / Limit Frame Rate). 120 FPS is ever so slightly smoother, but I would rather have the slightly better battery life disabling it.
Among mainstream users, people just don't care and this isn't remotely the differentiator people seem to hold it as. Similar to the micro bezel fetish, these are spec-chaser points that certain manufacturers convince people are must haves. But they really aren't.
> Among mainstream users, people just don't care and this isn't remotely the differentiator people seem to hold it as.
I agree that most users don't consciously care, but I think its definitely possible that it influences how fast the phone feels and could influence purchases if you are testing them side-by-side in a store. There is some anecdotal evidence to that in the fact that Google does the extremely scummy thing of locking their non-pro Pixels to 60Hz when in demo mode regardless of the refresh rate setting chosen in the OS.
Nothing like grabbing your phone by the button in your pocket and having it unlocked and open before you even lay eyes on it. As fast as they advertise faceid being it will never beat the fact you can engage touchid as soon as you lay a finger on the phone.
> Nothing like grabbing your phone by the button in your pocket and having it unlocked and open before you even lay eyes on it.
It's the perfect way to accidentally all of the things.
Accidentally open an app. Now you have to wait for it to load, and waste your network data and battery, before you can do what you really wanted to do.
Accidentally read that message, and also accidentally swipe it away while you fumble with your phone. You didn't want to see that message anyway.
Accidentally add that person to your contact groups. Yup, you added your boss to the conversation with your wife. Nobody will mind!
Accidentally read an email, and clicked on that phishing link. Cool beans, security relies on 2FA anyway, right? It's not like it could open an app and automagically read the SMS code, right?
Accidentally start playing video. Yes that video. In the conference room. It's nice that everyone has a great sense of humor!
even better when you are app developer or your phone is just laying down on table - it was nice when you didn't have to pick it up to unlock it and put it down.
That is really interesting to me. I admittedly haven't played with it in a while but on previous Android phones I've had basically any patch of skin would register and work okay with the sensor. I know because I used to rock climb a lot which tears up fingerprints so I would register things like the backside of my index finger so I could unlock the phone while it sits on a table. It was definitely finickier than a proper fingerprint but preferable to retraining it every couple of days.
Very unlikely. Also, the Touch ID in the iPad Air (and iPad mini) doesn’t work quite as well as the round Touch ID sensors on the Home buttons, due to the narrower shape and the placement. As a power button it’s also a bit clunky.
>Available space is less and varies due to many factors. A standard configuration uses approximately 12GB to 24GB of space, including iOS 18 with its latest features and Apple Intelligence on-device models can be deleted if Apple Intelligence is turned off and use approximately 7GB of space. Turning on Apple Intelligence will download the models again. Apple apps that can be deleted use about 4.5GB of space, and you can download them back from the App Store. Storage capacity subject to change based on software version, settings, and iPhone model.
> and the new Apple C1, the first cellular modem designed by Apple
This is the biggest announcement IMHO, it's been a long time coming for them to ship something after buying the patents from Intel. It makes sense to ship the first new radio in "not your flagship" and a good way to test it out.
I wonder if the iPhone 17 will have it or if they will wait another year to see how it does. I would imagine the 17 is pretty much locked down as of now so it's not like this phone is meant to test in the wild then use the tech in 17 since there isn't enough turnaround time.
You’re also forgetting the original leather bound MacBooks and the somewhat contentious introduction of reverse scroll, with calligraphy on both sides!
Ah, of course. I misspoke on that name. I may be showing my age here but the gen 1 papyrus displays were horrid. The scribes constantly complained about it muddying their quills.
Apparently the camera is "2 in 1" that does 2x zoom with "optical quality" but they never actually say it's true optical zoom. I'm guessing that it's just digital zoom with some fancy processing. Does anyone know for sure?
To be fair to the above poster, normally "digital zoom" implies that your standard (un-zoomed) image is at the native sensor resolution, and the zoomed image has reduced resolution because of the crop.
Presumably the standard image on the 16e converts the 48 MP sensor into a 12 MP image with less noise because they bin 4 sensor pixels into 1 pixel in the image file. So a 12 MP crop on the 48 MP sensor would result in a zoomed image with the same 12 MP resolution as the standard image. A major drawback would be higher image noise, but nobody will see a reduction in image pixels. At the end of the day it's probably somewhere between true optical zoom and a 12 MP native sensor with a crop.
Nice pun though. It's because when the camera is set to record 24 or 12mp photos at default zoom, then you can crop the 48mp sensor and still get the same resolution.
It's probably the same as the 2x zoom in the iPhone 16 line. The 1x pictures are a 48MP sensor that does some pixel-combining to output a 12MP image. The 2x pictures are a crop of 12MP in the center of the sensor, that doesn't do any combining. So it's still "optical", but it's lower-quality.
Now they don't have any phones with the old-style rounded bezel. The SE was the very last of them. I have a 12 mini and thing I really hate about it is the sharp, orthogonal bezel. It's very uncomfortable to hold for longer periods of time.
I'm taking this as a sign from Apple that I use my phone too much and should probably stop.
Still happy with my iPhone 7. Replaced display and battery, at an Apple Store, last year. Gaming, AI and photography are curiosities I look at from afar. For the rest it drives me around on vacation via CarPlay and Apple Maps. Handles my home banking, pre paid card and Apple Pay without a hitch. Chatting and calling on too many apps. Manages my digital IDs, medical records, emails, notes and calendar. Translates my conversations and runs Automations. It will soon help me charge an electric car. What more can I expect from it.
Same but 7+, it’s great. Battery got replaced every 42 months at 80%, and the only inconvenience for me with it is it doesn’t support iOS16/17+ apps and features like Grok, Tesla’s auto trunk open, and Garmin’s fitness app. I’m curious what shortcut/automations do you use? And I’m wondering in general how X’s Grok feature is any different functionally from their standalone iOS17+ app.
Putting aside the biggest issue which is a creased and more fragile screen, I’m not really convinced it’s a better experience. Having more real estate for movies seems useful, but it’s otherwise difficult to type/hold/tap on such a large screen without a full commitment to tablet usage (which often includes a stand). I’m also not really sure how often I’d use the larger format.
The flagship foldables have two screens. A screen on the front that’s a full sized screen just like any other smart phone screen of the last 10 years.
But you can then fold the phone open to get access to that wider screen.
So you get the best of both worlds, a normal phone handset for one handed action. But a larger screen for when you want something that’s a little more “tablet” like.
The best of both worlds for me would be a device around the size of the "iphone mini", but with a thicker body, no camera bump, and the extra volume is all battery.
Just to add, I too was originally put off by the crease in foldable displays. But if it’s a second screen then I can actually live with that crease since it’s not something that’s going to affect casual use. It’s just there for when a normal phone screen isn’t enough. So it’s almost like having a bonus screen rather than a crease in your main screen.
Historically Apple hasn't really had a problem with cannibalizing their own sales - the $329 iPad, Apple Watch SE and this phone right here probably cannibalize sales of the more expensive SKUs, but they exist regardless.
I suspect the real reason they haven't released a foldable yet is that foldables still need to have a soft plastic screen and a crease/bump in the middle, and Apple's design neuroticism would never permit them to ship such a thing.
I really don’t want to leave Apples ecosystem but when my phone is due for renewal later this year, I’d seriously consider switching to Android if it meant getting a foldable screen.
Action button looks to me they finally realized how good the blackberry action button was. Only took 20 years. Can we have the optical pointer back as well so we don't have to jab all over the glass which is slow and imprecise?
But couldn’t this previously have happened with a Qualcomm modem as well?
You can always easily tether to your iPhone. It’s hard to imagine people who own a Mac but don’t have a phone — I assume Android can also provide tethering? Aside from the BOM price increase and physical real estate, do want to pay $10/mo or whatever for an additional line?
I own a MacBook Pro and an iPhone (and other Apple devices which have cellular modems in them: an iPad and an Apple Watch). The tethering is flaky and burns two batteries at once while adding latency. I want an always on Internet connection like I can get with a Dell laptop.
The Qualcomm royalty agreement has been the problem, as they reportedly get a fraction of total device cost.
How my cellular provider bills me for it is irrelevant.
It could have, but my understanding is that Qualcomm's contracting is pretty brutal. They had no choice but to accept those terms with the iPhone. With the Mac, so long as they were selling without the modem, why bother?
Funny, I'm actually considering buying this specifically because it comes with Apple Intelligence, and I'm someone who usually avoids AI slop. I guess I just like Apple's particular flavor of AI slop since I use it with the mail and iMessage apps on my Mac all the time.
Probably because those of us who enjoy a lively discourse are tired of people trying to score some cheap karma with a thoughtless deployment of "slop" or "enshittification".
Understood. Here’s a more refined and articulate version:
"Can you provide this without the characteristic vagueness and padding of AI-generated text? I’d prefer something more precise, substantive, and thoughtfully constructed."
This keeps the directness while adding depth and clarity. Let me know if you'd like it even sharper.
I have a (regular) Pixel 8 and given that this is smaller and finally has USB-C I'm very tempted to try to jump to Apple again but I'm curious about the following:
1. Is there a terminal equivalent like termux?
2. Is there an open source wireguard client like the official wireguard client for Android?
3. Is it possible to upload mp4 videos to it to watch offline?
4. Is it possible to upload some of my mp3 collection to it to play offline?
5. I believe syncthing isn't officially supported. Are there any alternative syncthing implementations or workarounds?
As someone who recently switched from a Pixel 5 to an iPhone 15 Pro (bought purely for the camera as I'm travelling around Japan at the moment), I hate it. I'm going straight back to Android when I get back to the UK.
I plugged it into my MBP expecting to be able to copy media over, but you can only copy it into the sandboxed filesystem of one app. So choose wisely.
Downloading media using Plex etc sucks. As soon as the phone locks or you move to another app, it stops. On Pixel, I could queue up a load of downloads or SMB transfers, lock my phone on the side and expect them to be complete when I come back.
As for a terminal or using it like a computer, fuhgeddaboutit.
If anything I've said is wrong, please correct me. I want to like this phone, the camera is out of this world.
1. I mean, there's iSH to emulate an x86 linux environment, but it's not like you can get access to the iOS system through a terminal. Since I mainly use the terminal on my phone for SSH, I use Termius.
2. There's the official wireguard client
3. iOS has native mp4 support. You can play mp4s from files stored on the phone, or from gdrive or dropbox, etc. or just import to your photos/videos library.
1. Not really. There are some good SSH clients that I'd recommend instead.
2. I use the official Wireguard client.
3. Yep.
4. Yep.
5. People grouse about it, but iCloud works brilliantly if you use it with other Apple gear. There are also the usual suspects like Box, Dropbox, GDrive, etc.
Perhaps I'll finally update my 13 mini. I've been holding out hope that Apple will release another small form factor phone, but this may be the closest they will get.
I went from 13 mini to 16. I considered replacing the battery in the mini but a brand new 16 was so cheap with all the Verizon discounts and trade-in that it wasn’t worth putting a new battery in an old phone.
The 16 at first felt freakishly huge after years of the 13 mini, but I’ve gotten used to it.
My iPhone 12 Mini has seen better days, and I will need a new phone soon. It is disappointing that there is no alternative to the iPhone 12/13 Mini in 2025.
The smaller form factor is more comfortable in my hand, and fits better in my pockets. With the slim bezels, I have never felt that the screen was too small.
It is funny to think that the screen size on the iPhone 12 Mini is very similar to the screen size on the older plus models.
You should get 5 years of updates out of it I suspect. It was originally released in September of 2021. So, 2026 might be the final year of iOS updates you'll get, then it's just a matter of how long they back port any security fixes. Sometimes devices end up getting longer support so it's tough to say for sure.
At this point one of these SE type devices is on my list for any future upgrades. I've gone to carrying a pocketable camera with me pretty much anywhere so having a good camera on my phone is no longer necessary, which means no more Pro model for me.
I took myself off the every new iphone train at the 12 pro when it came out. My screen is pretty beat down at this point and the battery is 75% of a day. I keep thinking to get new one but a) my 12 pro is actually still very capable and I like the form factor a lot b) figuring out what iphone to get (including looking at acceptable older model) is totally overwhelming c) I really hate ewaste. If anyone has been in a similar situation and done the research I'm all ears. Thanks!
Why wouldn’t you replace the battery? I replaced the battery on my 12 after 2 years for £70 and got a phone that felt like after the replacement. And now, nearly 2 years later, I have no complaints. Maximum capacity 91%.
Not like a cable, but it's gotten really bad. I had constant drops on my iPhone 14 Pro. Eventually they shipped me a new one that had the same issue, but the recent software update fixed it almost 100%, like 1 drop/month instead of 10 daily.
Then I bought an iPhone 16 Pro and it was even worse than my iPhone 14 Pro... so I returned it even though I wanted a new phone.
I've never had even the slightest bit of interest in owning an iPhone, but if this is the testing ground for their new modem, I'm excited to see it come to the mac in the next few years.
I sadly will pass. I know there was no Mini size coming..but still, one can hope. Anyway, I see absolutely ZERO reasons to switch from my iPhone 14 other than to help them beta test their new modem in the field. They already have been doing that with software releases (iOS specially) since iOS 12/13.
A Mini would not have been a diminished experience/purchase even with lesser features. This is a diminished experience even for what it would cost.
With disappearance of iPhone SE in United States you can no longer buy iPhone with physical SIM slot. But cross the border into Canada and you can buy exact same phone with the physical slot.
This is a sad day and not progress in any meaningful way (social engineering away physical SIM, causing loss of flexibility when traveling).
Still rocking my iPhone XR with zero plans to change or upgrade phones. If I did or were forced to upgrade I would most likely go for something like this or an older 12 or 14 with a few features as possible.
Kinda disappointing on all three fronts I was hoping there could be some improvement: size, weight, price.
With medical conditions affecting my muscle strength, I wish phones would get a bit lighter. Glass sandwich form factor is unnecessarily heavy and fatigues my arms.
What that even be? You can’t fit what’s in the pro line in a smaller phone. The smaller phones already had smaller batteries, would you be willing to give up more to squeeze in another lens? Something or some things have to give when you have less space to work with.
Apple made the best small phones anyone had ever made and people didn’t like them. Bigger phones allow for a lot more than just bigger screens. People seem to take all the non screen stuff for granted.
Well, I bought a 12 mini the day it came out. I'm about due for an upgrade, and I would go with the 17 mini when it comes out, if they still made minis.
All of my friends that have minis are also people that don't upgrade frequently.
I like my 13 mini, but now I will be happy to trade some size for a bigger battery. Also, some websites turned out to be unusable on a smaller screen, so today I am thrilled for the 16e
You can’t fit what’s in a pro into a mini sized phone. You have to give something up. The battery was already smaller than the regular sized phones. So what would you be willing to give up from the regular line to get a mini that wasn’t Gimped?”
This might replace my 12 mini. But I'll probably use my phone until it's dead or out of support because this phone just works for me from a form factor perspective.
It's unfortunate jumbotrons sell so well to the mindless masses that live on a phone. Otherwise the two main sizes would be the 5.42 and 6.3. Both reasonable for daily carry in a pocket. The 6.7 and 6.9" sizes are what are silly.
Does anyone else long for a new personal device (phone) maker/leader? A real AI phone where if you want you can have a full human like conversation (text, voice & video chat it recognizes gestures & emotions (facial expressions)) with your AI assistant from your lock screen.
I use chatGPT while driving in the car to get things done & as a knowledge base, but I have to open the app to use it (not safe when driving).
I have an iPhone 15 Pro and still with Siri's Apple Not-Intelligent I can only ask Siri one question at a time and I always have to say Hey Siri ask ChatGPT xyz and then to continue to learn more have to say that again with a follow-up question. It's such a terrible UX when compared to opening chatGPT and talking to it, yet again not safe to do so when driving!
You will likely need to wait for iOS 19 when they transplant an LLM into Siri for that kind interaction. Even then I’m not certain that Apple will go that direction.
Hopefully Open AI and Microsoft could release a true AI phone one that is like the movie H.E.R. where it does everything for you .. just like talking to a human via text, voice & video chat but ur human AI assistant. It interfaces with AI Agents of businesses, your friends, families and co-workers agents to get things scheduled, done, your knowledgebase on all things, etc for you.
How possible is it for there to be a "disruptor" to the smartphone market?
I think Apple's selling point is the app ecosystem, but I personally don't use apps all that much. Just a few big ones and they're all just for communication: FB Messenger, WhatsApp, SIM, SnapChat. And the web browser, maps. I'm 27.
Why can't someone just manufacture a screen, some buttons, little computer, then software for communication and make some good money?
Just seems Apple is a dinosaur nowadays Google too.
A few lower end black and white screen Android phones exist, and that seems closer to what you want.
I have some other obligations to handle, but the iPhone 16e looks perfect for me. You can replace so much music production gear with an IOS device. Can legit plug in a microphone and record a full album, which just isn't really their on Android.
It's beyond frustrating, but on IOS you have amazing music production, and Android is like 10 years behind. I wish Apple would offer a musicians edition with a headphone jack ( I'd literally pay an extra 150$) , but that's never going to happen...
What would a disruptor in the smartphone space even do in 2025?
It's not like the status quo phones are too expensive, too small or too slow compared to the average user's use case. There is a phone for every price point, and at worst you'll be stuck with a bad camera or a laggy chipset.
There are already phones running Linux and de-Googled OSes (Purism, Librem, LineageOS). They won't ever get big enough to challenge Apple/Samsung, but maybe be big enough to have a stable enough OS to not scare off people looking to switch.
Is it the phone or the software that you installed on the phone? You're blaming the horse the bandit rode in on rather than saying that the bandit is the issue.
Not sure how you can have the software without the hardware.
Screens are addictive. Why they are addictive is an interesting question- but regardless of the software being used- video games, social media, browsing the web, the fact remains that these activities are all addictive. I suspect it's just because screens are shiny, colorful, interactive objects. It doesn't matter what app you give a baby or a chimp, they will stare at the screen for many hours. TV addiction illustrates my point further.
Anyways, this is all besides my original question. Apple/Google feel like the IBM/HP of old. What shape will the new Apple/Google take?
The assumption that everyone has an issue with a device is where you loose me. I rarely look at my phone. I don't have any social apps on it. I only use the phone if I'm away from my keyboard. It is absolutely possible to own a device and not be addicted to it. I use my device for things that are useful, not unhealthy habits. It is not the device's fault you use it for unhealthy habits. Recognizing and admitting the problem is a huge step
>Not sure how you can have the software without the hardware.
You can have good software. You can have bad software. The hardware does not make it good or bad. The software is whatever the devs made it to be utilizing whatever hardware on which it runs. The user is ultimately responsible for the software they use whether they installed it or it is preinstalled.
Again, blaming the horse because the rider is doing bad things is not the right approach
> In your example, I can just look thru your HN history and see you posted dozens of times yesterday.
What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? I don't use a device to do this.
Welp rip any interest a bunch of us had in an iphoneSE4.
What a fucking waste of time. The sad thing is I can accept that apple continually wants miserable storage base tiers, that ship has sailed and they will never see 256gb as logical starting points on a phone so damn expensive when their computers start at that horrid storage point.
If it was $499 I would have contemplated finally upgrading. At $599 I'll let everyone else beta test apples new modem in case its another 'you're holding it wrong' type of response if it underperforms in speed, connection quality, etc.
When the SE2 and SE3 came out I yelled about the 64gb being complete shit then too. They consistently lag 5 years behind reasonable storage tiers for the price of the phone.
Its a mix out there. Personally I prefer to keep 100+GB of music on me because cell service in 2025 still sucks, and so does music subscription service offerings.
The average normal person I help with phones all seem to be running out of space but its usually done to junk apps they forgot they had, 60gb of grandkid videos, and 10 years of texts they keep dragging along.
The SE was always a bad value prop. A used iPhone was always a much better value. The only reason I approve of the SE is that they get very cheap via the prepaid market (regularly <$100)
Yeah, have a Ubiquiti home network, and want to optimize placement of my access points (before I install mounts on the walls/ceiling) and also would like to use it to compare different APs to see if an upgrade makes sense vs installing an extra AP for the garage that doesn't get good signal.
So you want a feature in a device that you're going to use for a single purpose one time? How many times do you need to map your house once you have the map? There's gotta be a better single use device for purpose rather than having it limit your options for a non-single purpose device.
I'm applying your yes response to the final question of there's gotta be a better way than your request for an rarely used feature in a reduced feature device.
Lack of MagSafe is disappointing. How much would it have cost to include? It's an intriguing feature that distinguishes iPhones from Android competitors. I wonder if the intention was to avoid cannibalizing its more expensive siblings.
I would rather at this point have a watch with good cellular comms, that could use bluetooth for calls and let me tether a tablet for web use.
But I have to say, I was more annoyed by the loss of touch ID than by the increase in screen size. While I like the smallest possible iPhone, my SE has not been very nice to use lately. Developers aren't testing their sites/apps on that screen size, and many sites/apps are getting really janky when run on a screen that small.
The 2D surface area, which affects holding and pocketing, is 13% larger.
Weight also matters.
I honestly still prefer the form factor of the iPhone 3GS. (I have an old one in a drawer for comparison.) 4.8 ounces, 4.5 x 2.4 x 0.48 with a rounded back. The thickness wasn't a problem.
You've never heard of people complaining about how "big" phones are, and wishing for a "smaller" phone? How would you measure "big" and "smaller" other than volume?
You can still buy a pristine 13 mini on the secondary market. The original iPhone is not a viable device today, but the 13 mini is better across every tech axis (better processor, battery life, screen, camera, ...) than the SE and is worth comparing to.
This is missing the point. I have a 3rd gen SE and am not currently in the market for a new phone. The issue is that Apple is no longer selling anything to people who want a small iPhone. Moreover, the used market will dry up eventually, and iOS support will be dropped even sooner.
However, as the iPhone 12 and 13 mini demonstrated, the people who like small phones are a very vocal but extremely small minority (only 3% of US sales were the mini). They both sold so badly, it serves as a reality check for how small voices on the internet are compared to the market.
This is all relative. In absolute terms, the iPhone SE alone would be one of the most successful products in the world, more successful than the original iPhone back in the day.
iPhone as a category is so massive now that small percentages are still millions of people.
It's kind of sad that Apple itself has become so huge, because now the company ignores people it used to care about.
I guess a lot of people don't really have a computer or laptop anymore, their phone is their computer which they use for everything, so it makes sense to want as big a screen as possible.
For the kinds of people who frequent HN, I'd wager we all do have a computer, heck there's probably a laptop in your backpack right now, so it makes sense to have a smaller phone for 'phone stuff' and whip out your laptop to do anything more involved.
Still though, surely Apple made money from the mini, even 3% of iPhone sales is a lot of phone sales! I wish they would keep it around.
I feel like the 12 mini was objectively a subpar device, and maybe if 13 mini had come out first (after a long hiatus of not having smaller phones), then there might have been a chance. But probably not.
You're assuming most people even read the spec sheet and knew it was inferior on paper. I assure you, most did not. Most just looked at it, decided "too small," and that's about it.
I meant the people who wanted a small phone experienced it, and were disappointed, and it gained a bad reputation, potentially turning off others who also wanted a small phone.
There was a big gap (5+ years?) between the small iPhone SE and the 12 mini, so a lot of people jumping on 12 mini and being disappointed by the small phone may have resulted in disappointing sales of 13 mini.
But I’m sure the phone sellers know what they are doing, it just would have been nice to even be able to still buy a 13 mini. None of the new phones have any capabilities I care about.
Edit to respond to below:
I am not assuming that, I am actually assuming the opposite. There may have been pent up demand due to the long gap between the small iPhone SE and 12 mini, so when the 12 mini came out and disappointed, people who had been waiting to upgrade chose a non mini reducing the total number of minis sold. And then the 13 mini was discontinued by the time those people needed a new phone.
You're assuming that people upgrade phones every year, which (again) most do not. A badly received 12 mini would have almost no broad market effect on the sales of the 13 mini. Not unless most iPhone sales are by word of mouth.
If they're going to buy a regular iPhone for $100 more anyway, and the likelihood they buy a small Android instead is near zero (what small Android?), then yes, I absolutely would say to cut it and simplify the engineering, manufacturing, and checkout process.
If you start serving every 4% of needs in each product category, watch the portfolio balloon to catastrophic proportions. The very principle of the thing is anti-Apple; they would quickly become Samsung, complete with Samsung level naming schemes and weird decision making. Next thing you know, we'll have the Apple Vacuum Cleaner, the Apple Door Lock, the Apple Ice Cream Scoop, the Apple Exterior Camera, and so on.
This slippery slope argument doesn't click for me. They obviously perceive the value of segmenting the market by device size. I'm just asking for the smaller size to be actually small.
Or maybe opportunity cost is a real thing. They have decided it isn’t worth it to pursue that niche. I think Apple believes it has addressed a lot of the small screen needs with the watch.
Even the SE was a little bigger than the 4S screen I really miss. Combined with the angled sides it was the last phone I could comfortably operate with one hand.
Not only on HN, everywhere around me. It has to do with country trends I guess. In France, so many people want small phones. They just cannot buy them anymore, they're not produced.
Apple should just start a preorder site for a small iPhone 17 and wait until enough are collected to make it.
(Or do what I always thought they should do and have a small iPhone and a normal sized one with identical internals, only the case, battery, and screen would be different.)
I have a Razr. The touchscreen surface isn't glass (there's a TPU film on top for protection), but it's a very good experience and I rarely think about it not being glass.
I agree that the tech is not at the place where it was 25 years ago, but I fiddled with plastic screen protectors on top of these kinds of screens enough. I still use screen protectors, but glass on glass is a much better experience for me.
It's a matter of choice, and I'm not judging people who like it by any means, but I'm a bit boneheaded on these things and don't change my choices that fast. For example, I still don't think OLED is suitable for TV sized screens and laptops. I know how the color and contrast is better, but I don't want to replace my TV or laptop every three years because it develops subtle burn-ins for example. I come from CRTs, and can endure a good backlit LCD a couple of more years, esp if it has color temperature adaptive backlight.
My hands are too small to comfortably use the screen. Bezel size don't matter.
How about accepting that we know what we want and that we don't need you you to lecture us on our preferences? Seriously, what's wrong with you? "Oh you complained about your preference on X, but let me educate you about your preferences are wrong?"
Why are small phones not economical for major flagship phone developers? Obviously more expensive phones generate more revenue, but the reduced bill of materials on smaller phones should allow a better profit margin?
Mostly I just want a phone that is comfortable in my hands.
> but the reduced bill of materials on smaller phones should allow a better profit margin?
Is there a significantly reduced bill of materials? At best, the correlation between size and cost is very small. Most of the costs are in software, manufacturing, etc, not in materials.
Also, would there be a better profit margin? I bet customers won’t want to pay the same for a smaller phone, certainly not give that it will have lower battery life (power usage will, at best, go up with screen area, and battery volume will go up faster than phone volume because parts such as CPUs will not be smaller in smaller phones)
Apple tried with the iPhone 12 mini, and the iPhone 13 mini. They were only 5% of phones sold globally, and only 3% of phones sold in the US.
The desire for small phones is an internet thing, but not backed by the market. Take it as a reality check for how internet opinions can be mostly irrelevant.
At the scale of Apple, is a specific device configuration that 'only' meets the needs of 3% of their market economically unviable? Did they build a whole special factory just for the slightly smaller device?
Not a whole factory but whole other tooling, so yes? The chassis is different, the screen is different, the mainboard is different, the layout is different, the battery is different, I think the camera was also different. Only thing shared between the other models was the buttons and the lightning port.
It's a huge cost for something that sold (relatively) poorly.
But it’s better to sell phones with better margin. More people need to take Econ 101. Opportunity cost is an actual thing. You can be sure they did the math. Selling ever so slightly fewer larger phones at higher margin is better than selling slightly more phones at a lower margin.
Apple knows its sales and profits much better than anyone else.
More skus is really really expensive quite often. You can end up with a low run product that is even more expensive than a 'premium' larger/nicer product.
Exactly. But Apple has so many low hanging fruits that anything that doesn't make billions is irrelevant to them.
Apple is making way too much money for the good of their customers. If only people would stop mindlessly buying, they would eventually listen but their userbase has become so huge that they are not going to change anytime soon.
Nobody buys Apple products anymore because they’re too popular? Or maybe they’d be more popular if people bought fewer devices? I can’t make any sense out of what you’re saying.
What if, and I know this is a crazy thought but what if people aren’t buying Apple products mindlessly? What if they buy them because they like them? Maybe they’d didn’t buy the mini phones because they didn’t like them.
I didn't say any of the weird questions/statement you try to pin me for.
Maybe it doesn't make sense to you because you are confused?
Then again, you are confused, I never said they were buying mindlessly. They buy it because they are popular and confer status. This is why the vast majority of people buy them, not a well-reasoned and careful choice attained by proper comparison and knowledge after reviewing options.
It's not good for people who view those things as tools, because price increase and focus on the historical target group diminish tremendously.
It's not something that is exclusive to Apple but it's particularly painful because of the quirks of computing (having software linked to a particular hardware platform).
And yes, they didn't buy the Mini phone because they didn't like them. It confers less status and is not as good as a social media machine, so of course.
But by this logic McDonalds must be good because of how many people like them and somehow that's a desirable and valuable outcome.
3% can be "small" in the sense of operationally-insignificant/low-ROI, even at Apple's scale, when you consider that they only have a handful of models (currently five) shipping simultaneously.
Figure most of those 3% would buy a different iPhone model if their preference was not available (not Android, because even if brand loyalty / ecosystem lock-in wasn't so powerful, the Android small-phone options are not competitive).
Then figure that 0.5% (generously!) of lost revenue has to pay for all the custom tooling, parts, manufacturing lines, etc.
... and it all makes an infernal kind of sense.
I'm still anachronistically appreciating my iPhone SE (Gen 1) with a 4" IPS display, Touch ID, Lightning connector, and a 3.5mm audio jack. It's great!
Except that I'll need to upgrade from iOS 15 at some point. :)
> The desire for small phones is an internet thing, but not backed by the market. Take it as a reality check for how internet opinions can be mostly irrelevant.
People have said this for years, but the mini phones were never going to be instant day-one hits. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy to launch them during Covid, offer them 2 years, and say no one wants them.
Give them a permanent place in the lineup, treating phones like every other very personal device meant for humans. Small, medium, and large.
If you do that, and give people time to see exactly why 5.42 screens are superior to 6.1"+ sizes, then I think the numbers will start to change from what we saw with the iPhone 12 mini and iPhone 13 mini that were launched when people were less on the go than in 100 years.
And no, I don't think a mini SKU can ever beat out the "cheap and big" midrange device that the average person is going to go for. Those will never be beat because they have perceived value. But I would bet in time it comes close or beats the "big and expensive" iPhone Pro Max option.
The C1 is (fingers crossed) probably going to be a big improvement on the security front, since historically, cellular modems have been chock full of remotely exploitable security flaws.
That said, if this is their "first gen" then there could be teething issues.
If it had a small screen that would be 110% fine. As it is, I think that no-bezel devices are easier to misclick on, but I agree that it does seem very strange on apple's part.
It would be nice to put the last few years of developments since his death into a silicon brain and ask the digital Steve Jobs his thoughts on the current state of affairs.
Looks more and more that Apple is pushing AI inference to the edges, with this and the Mac Mini and it's very suspiciously placed power button which says "No, you don't need to shut this computer off. It has important work to do! (For everyone else)"
Will be interesting to see how Apple and Nvidia's approaches to AI compare and contrast over the coming months/years.
I am hoping Apple at some point in the future will allow iphone owners who also own a Mac with an M series chip to run Apple Intelligence from the Mac to take advantage of faster compute and larger parameter models while still operating at the 'edge'. If the apple private cloud tech allows for a Tailscale like connectivity between your mac and all iphone/ipads on an icloud account I could see that as an additional hook to stay inside the apple ecosystem in addition to the benefits brought to bear by having a much more capable LLM to offload compute to without involving 3rd party AI companies. Perhaps bundle the feature with iCloud+ subscription?
Right??! Others are downvoting me for supposedly inventing a conspiracy theory but to me it lines up pretty well with their business and could offer some compelling value to customers. Most people haven't read up on their private cloud stuff.
But I really did think that about the Mac Mini power button!
> It has important work to do! (For everyone else)
Where do you get that macOS is running code like this? I've never heard of shared compute on my computer for anything other than software I deliberately installed. I haven't paid that close attention to the past couple of OS propaganda films at the start of WWDC. Did I miss something?
I'm not saying they currently are. They wouldn't until they knew that whatever they were doing was utterly secure. I'm just positing that they might be going there.
Maybe there's zero evidence now, but think about the lengths to which Apple has gone to build a private cloud infrastructure and why they would do so. It's one thing for them to offer that as a do-gooder service to their customers, which it certainly is. But once it's established as private and secure, why wouldn't they use spare compute at the edge for inference? It's smart. It's not a conspiracy.
> think about the lengths to which Apple has gone to build a private cloud infrastructure
None? I don't know what you're referring to. Apple's not running any kind of cloud on my private device. Their Private Cloud Compute is about running inference on Apple's cloud but with privacy guarantees -- not on consumer devices.
> It's one thing for them to offer that as a do-gooder service to their customers, which it certainly is.
Again, no idea what you're talking about. Who's doing good to who? Apple's providing a service to get you to buy their hardware. Consumers aren't doing good for other consumers.
> why wouldn't they use spare compute at the edge for inference? It's smart.
You're talking about on people's devices? Because it would use up their battery and heat up their devices and connectivity can be spotty which leads to terrible latency. I mean, that would be as bad as secretly mining Bitcoin on people's devices. How would that ever be smart?
And Apple's in the business of selling hardware. Not helping people save money by sharing hardware. You can't even share an iPad with different logins for family members.
Apple and Nvidia have arguably already diverged at the important forks in the road. Nvidia believes in complex GPU/streaming multiprocessor stacks - Apple relies on specialized hardware. Apple used to support a more complex software stack that could enable them to compete with Nvidia, but abandoned it shortly before the crypto craze to focus on NPU hardware.
...and then NPUs sorta did nothing. They run a few tiny models, maybe, but for any "serious" inference tasks Apple will automatically prioritize your 10x more powerful GPU hardware. Oftentimes the GPU is more efficient too, depending on the task.
So now Apple has a choice to make. They can either attempt to scale-up the NPU hardware and leave it on-device as dark silicon 99% of the time, or they can renovate their GPU hardware to support complex GPGPU operations and axe the NPU altogether. Right now it seems like Nvidia has the right idea, Apple just needs to find out how to scale it down as well as they can.
Sure so then ask yourself what advantages could an NPU have over a general purpose GPU. Your assumption is that Apple has erred. However if security was top priority, then that could make NPU make sense in the long run. And then ask why security is so important… it becomes vastly more important when your device is operating on other people’s workloads.
Check out the battery life!
> iPhone 16e has the best battery life ever on a 6.1-inch iPhone, lasting up to six hours longer than iPhone 11 and up to 12 hours longer than all generations of iPhone SE.
Their page comparing models claims the new 16e gets "26 hours video playback."
The new battery life seems to be mostly due to their new Apple C1 cellular modem, replacing the Qualcomm modems in earlier models.> Expanding the benefits of Apple silicon, C1 is the first modem designed by Apple and the most power-efficient modem ever on an iPhone, delivering fast and reliable 5G cellular connectivity. Apple silicon — including C1 — the all-new internal design, and the advanced power management of iOS 18 all contribute to extraordinary battery life.
I'm sure the modem contributes, but IMO the battery life is probably mostly from just having a bigger battery due to the new internal design (and maybe chemistry changes). The new design moves the frame's structure into the middle of the sandwich, making it more rigid and allowing them to make the frame thinner to pack in more battery.
Lots of people are mad about losing magsafe but in magsafe phones the magnets sit flush with the frame in a huge circular cutout just below the back glass. The hole weakens the frame so the frame has to be thicker because of it.
I don't think there is really a world where this phone gets 6 more hours of battery life while still having magsafe and fitting into the existing shape of the iPhone 14.
https://youtu.be/mFuyX1XgJFg?t=227
> "I'm sure the modem contributes, but IMO the battery life is probably mostly from just having a bigger battery"
According to reports, the 16e has a slightly smaller battery than the iPhone 16. 3279 mAh in the 16e vs. 3561 mAh in the 16.
IMO somebody just made that up based on it sharing the outer dimensions of the iPhone 14 which also happens to have exactly 3279 mAh. I can't really figure out what "larger battery" could mean in their release video if it isn't larger than at least the 14 if not the 16.
The iPhone 16e is based on the iPhone 14 chassis, with various internal hardware components swapped out. Just like the previous iPhone SE was based on the iPhone 8. So I guess there was an assumption that maybe it uses the same battery as the 14.
But given that the cameras got swapped out for a single lens, the MagSafe magnets were removed, etc, it’s certainly conceivable that they freed up space internally for a larger battery in the 16e!
I can’t understand how someone can say with certainty the capacity down to a single digit (3279).
There would be manufacturing differences that would induce at least some variation from phone-to-phone.
It is the capacity published by Apple. Apparently some regulatory bodies [1] require that information.
[1] https://www.mysmartprice.com/gear/mobiles/mobiles-news/apple...
But it is an interesting question: What is the manufacturing tolerance? Naively I had assumed that it's much smaller than a watt-hour. But that's based on ~no knowledge :D
You can still have a specific "normal"/expected capacity, even if you're producing them +-20 mWh.
It’s a nominal capacity that’s printed on the battery, and encoded into its firmware. In practice, batteries tend to exceed this nominal capacity when they’re brand new which is why you see new batteries stay on 100% charge for a long time. As it ages, the true capacity will degrade and eventually falls below the nominal capacity.
Well it could be that the capacity is 3200-3349, and they publish the number that is in the center of confidence interval. Rounding up would be received badly, and rounding down suggests it has less capacity than it really does (on average)
Though, the youtube commercial states new internal design “optimized for new battery”.
Sounds reasonable, but why can't we just compare it, the mAh of this phone's battery is a secret or something?
Apple generally doesn't publish their battery specs so we'll have to wait for it to get into reviewers hands
> the mAh of this phone's battery is a secret or something
It can easily be measured from the time required to fully charge the phone (when turned off), and continuously monitoring the power it draws from the charger.
I'm pretty sure it isn't even that complicated. Reviewers just open it up and just look at the battery.
The exact mAh is only secret until the first non-Apple person who wants to know gets one.
With almost everyone using a case, magsafe doesn’t really need to be in the phone, it would probably be fine if it’s just in the case.
A lot of cases pass through the MagSafe. I personally charge almost exclusively via MagSafe desk and night stands. My phone is in a case.
I found that this heats up the battery thus shortening its lifespan for no good reason if a cable is available.
I don’t understand—if the frame is in the middle why can’t the MagSafe go on the outside?
It could, but as it is all the components are directly against the back glass. The magnets have thickness so the phone would have to be thicker or the battery would have to be thinner for everything to fit.
It can. You can get a case that simply adds the MagSafe(/Qi2) alignment magnets and then you've got a MagSafe device (albeit limited to 7.5W charging)
Its been a long slog for Apple, they have been working on this since 2018, and they had to keep extending its supply agreements with Qualcomm...
"Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part for Its New iPhones"
>The 2018 marching orders from Apple Chief Executive Tim Cook to design and build a modem chip—a part that connects iPhones to wireless carriers—led to the hiring of thousands of engineers. The goal was to sever Apple’s grudging dependence on Qualcomm, a longtime chip supplier that dominates the modem market. The obstacles to finishing the chip were largely of Apple’s own making, according to former company engineers and executives familiar with the project. Apple had planned to have its modem chip ready to use in the new iPhone models. But tests late last year found the chip was too slow and prone to overheating. Its circuit board was so big it would take up half an iPhone, making it unusable.
https://kanebridgenews.com/inside-apples-spectacular-failure... [2023]
Apple managed to design its own state-of-the-art CPUs. I wouldn't have imagined that designing its own modem would be such a difficult challenge?
Modems are harder to get right than CPUs. A CPU needs to do math and work with digital data lines. A modem needs to talk to the mobile network, using radios, and a bunch of standards that were built up since the 90s.
Tacking on: the devil in a modern baseband is in the firmware. The analog domain stuff is generally handled by increasingly commoditized RF frontends outside of the baseband processor, and then either clean analog IQ or more recently, even digital samples (DAC and ADC moved to frontend) are sent to the baseband processor.
A baseband is a really fancy specialized SDR. Most are based on arcane VLIW DSP architectures like Qualcomm’s Hexagon or Samsung Marconi - you’ll usually have several DSPs handling the different physical layer channels, and then some coordinating DSPs doing L1 channel mixing and timing (in 4G and 5G, various logical and transport channels are muxed into the same physical channels).
Then a set of higher level processor cores (usually referred to as CP, sometimes still a DSP but often a general purpose application processor like ARM) will handle the MAC and above. There will be occasional fixed function blocks for some common protocol functions, but generally it’s less “analog magic” in the way people think when they hear “radio” and more “DSP magic.”
If you look at the math it's not even that complicated. Basic statistical inference and information theory.
Seems like the difficult part is doing that effectively while avoiding IP issues -- patents on software and math have entrenched Qualcomm's dominance.
Imagine if all of the IP for ML or AI were held by a single company that got the regulating body (ITU/3GPP) to require their use. Makes a mockery of FRAND terms.
Patents are the main thing here.
Building a cellular modem, complete with working protocol stack, entirely in software has been done as a 1 person open source project.
Making a production -ready modem is clearly more complex, but far from hard for a company with the resources of Apple.
However, doing so whilst not violating any of qualcomms huge array of patents is the real challenge.
I'm willing to bet that the release date of this phone probably closely aligns with the expiry date of a patent they couldn't work around.
There might be someone in government right now willing to flush obvious software patents
Patents are the dumbest thing on the planet.
It is extremely hard to design a modem like this. Just the ADCs and DACs you need are like 2-3 year development and 1-2 year testing before going into production.
The original M-series chip team left years ago, or at least the major drivers. Also: radios are hard, super hard.
I wouldn't expect these initial baseband implementations to be fantastic software wise.
That's probably why it's in a weird release between 16 and 17.
The final round of beta-testing has been assigned to Apple's economy-class customers.
Someone has to be first.
CPUs can be easily developed in an ecosystem where annual updates and the ability to end-of-life hardware older than a decade are the norm. Cellular network opereators share none of those properties with Apple, and so any new modem chip designed to interoperate with carriers would necessarily be an order of magnitude more difficult to implement than an CPU that only needs to interoperate with Xcode would be.
Except making a decent modem is indeed harder than start of art CPU. People loves to shit on Qualcomm but dont appreciate that amount of work involved.
The hard part is not the modem design per se.
The hard part is designing a good modem while also unambiguously working around all the Qualcomm patents in all the jurisdictions that have iPhone, which is all of them.
Because if you don’t do that, you’re still paying Qualcomm which defeats an important purpose of making your own modem.
All those patents are standards-essential, which means Qualcomm (and anyone else involved in the standardization process for cellular networks) has to license them under "FRAND[0]" terms, which at least for this scenario means "for the same price we'd license them to Samsung or Intel[1]". It also means that design-arounds are not possible; if you design a different technology from the one Qualcomm owns, you're not speaking 5G anymore. That's why we have these legal rules on standards-essential patents.
[0] Fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory. Each one of those words has a funny legal definition separate from whatever English you're thinking of.
[1] Who, incidentally, sold Apple the modem division that made the C1, because Intel is nothing but a bottomless pit of bad management decisions
I’ll admit with not being up to speed here, my information is actually fairly old, but Qualcomm is famous for skirting its FRAND obligations and as far as I know “no license, no chips” is still de rigor. https://www.sunsteinlaw.com/publications/no-license-no-chips...
Apple is most probably paying Qualcomm for these technologies. They think however that it is commercially beneficial to have their own implementation.
In 2025 it is time to give credit for Apple's PR spreading whole misinformation online during and after the trial. Macrumours and 9to5mac loves to repeat those narrative about Apple no longer has to pay any patent fees when they make their own modem.
As the reply below, Apple still has to pay its SEP. Given Apple has its current deal with Qualcomm until 2027 with time to extend further we likely won't know the full details. Previously it was 5% of Wholesale price for all Qualcomm patents whether they are SEP, wireless or not. With a cap or maximum $20 per smartphone meaning the Pro range don't have to pay a lot more. And rebate towards the modem Apple purchase. The reality after deducting rebate Apple was paying closer to 5%. For reference Ericsson ask for 3% on 5G SEP, previous Cory ruling suggest reality was closer to 2%.
I would buy that a decent modem is harder than many CPU designs, maybe even most. But harder than state-of-the-art? Surely not, have you seen the complexity?
And even CPUs (esp state of art) have to worry about radio effects, as in avoiding internally and across chipset.
I never worked on radio modems, but I've worked on wireline modems: the issue is not the math or the standard algorithms, it's making it interoperable with everything that's existing out there and all environment conditions while working around bugs of other implementations.
It is a ridiculous amount of work and if you're new to the business, it takes a long time just to be build the lab test suite. And you need to support not just the latest and greatest protocols but also legacy ones. The operators have their own say and test labs as well and they all have slightly different setups and requirements.
> And even CPUs (esp state of art) have to worry about radio effects, as in avoiding internally and across chipset.
Radio effect are rarely an issue with regular chips. Crosstalk within a chip only happens between wires that are within hundreds of nanometers separated from each other.
> Radio effect are rarely an issue with regular chips.
I'm an amateur, so welcome correction with this, but I'm also not convinced. For one example, ref this RFI mitigation with Intel's gen 12 processors: https://edc.intel.com/content/www/cn/zh/design/ipla/software...
I meant RF impact on the internal functioning of the chip, not the other way around. EMI has always been a thing, it's not specific to state of the art CPUs.
State of the art CPUs aren't fundamentally different to more basic CPUs. They just have fancier microarchitectures, better branch predictors, more cache, etc.
Easy to believe radios would be an order of magnitude harder, what with the ancient proprietary standards and actual physical radio stuff. (The closest CPUs get is serdes and in my experience those are bought in from Synopsys et al.)
s/work/patent blackmail/g
The CPU/SOC operates independently with limited protocols (such as PCIe, NVMe, etc.). In contrast, a baseband processor must communicate with various base stations and core networks, requiring precise timing, physical signal alignment, and correct message formats. Even though the 3GPP defines mobile network standards, achieving full compatibility remains extremely challenging.
When you're apple, you can just be mostly compliant, and the worlds mobile networks will have to work around your bugs.
Nobody will use a phone company that doesn't work with iPhones.
A lot of the mobile networks use off the shelf hardware. That was one of the reasons Huawei was painful to remove from global phone networks. If they don't work, they will not work over multiple networks.
If there are reports of iPhones failing to work reliably from Kansas City to Kuala Lumpur then it would be unlikely to be the operators being blamed here.
Not necessarily. People will notice if it doesn’t work as well as their last iPhone.
M chips are ARM so while they designed their particular architecture for it they were still building on some pretty solid foundations.
A modem, well nobody's going to help them build one of those; it'd put them out of business - ARM's business _is_ selling access to its body of work.
In fairness, Apple started by licensing the ARM core which gave them a base to work from. The modem is fantastically harder unless you can license an existing design that's not qualcomm.
They bought out Intel's modem business (giving them something like to work from), afaik.
One difficult I remember reading is: they can't always do things an obvious way someone else did because... patents.
Which is ironic, considering that patents are supposed to be non-obvious.
We're talking about a company that took another one to court because both of their products had rounded corners.
And similarly, copyright was supposed to "promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts", but here we are
Their first CPU was launched in 2010, and development likely began in 2006-2007. The M1 launched to much fanfare in 2020.
Their CPU is based on ARM IP, it’s not like they designed it from the ground up. The modem they might have had to? Also I guess a big challenge are all the patents you need to be aware of and find ways to license or circumvent, not sure if that’s worse for modems but it seems all wireless / cellular technology is riddled with patents (not saying CPUs aren’t but again ARM is probably taking care of some of that for Apple).
No, that's not how the Apple Silicon works - it was at the very start, but the processor cores haven't been based on Arm IP since the A6, since then the Arm designed cores were replaced with fully custom cores that are just compatible with the Arm instruction set.
Same with the GPU except that was later on - it was a licensed PowerVR IP until Apple started using their own custom GPU from the A11.
They bought intel’s entire modem unit, so it’s not a ground up design, but maybe that makes it worse… who knows what was causing intel to not be competitive in that space…
> Their CPU is based on ARM IP, it’s not like they designed it from the ground up.
It's the opposite, AArch64 was designed by ARM in order to produce their CPUs.
I wonder who manufacturers them. Time to sell Qualcomm and buy ???
Partly due to being able to fit a bigger battery with the smaller modem size https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFuyX1XgJFg
timestamped: https://youtu.be/mFuyX1XgJFg?t=233
Modem has always been a pain point since it's an entire SoC that had to be shielded from the rest of the system. Apple producing their own modem is a giant undertaking.
So the video test is done with the video streaming over cellular data?
Otherwise what would a video playback time spec have to do with the efficiency of the cellular radio?
Phones maintain a cellular connection even if most data is being transmitted over WiFi at any given moment
Cellular modems are constantly reading and broadcasting messages to the cellular network unless they are explicitly turned off
But they use much more power when they are receiving data.
Sure. But they also use a massive amount of power when they’re out of range so constantly searching for the network
Turning off your modem is second only to turning off your screen if you’re looking to save battery
Not nearly close enough to when they are receiving data, especially video.
When actively receiving data, a cellular modem will use significantly more power than when idle, with the exact amount depending on factors like network strength, data rate, and the specific modem technology, but typically ranging from several hundred milliwatts to a few watts
Sending data with a radio is always much more power intensive than receiving data unless the channel is extremely asymmetric in bandwidth and/or data rate.
I am wondering exactly the same. Maybe the standby costs? The chip needs to always have power to be able to receive the radio waves, it uses less power in that way but still quite a bit, I guess.
The surprise is how much power that is. It's either that or misleading marketing. I know Apple struggled to make this modem, so maybe it's still not great when it comes to standby power consumption. Since it's Apple we will only know after quite a bit of independent testing...
In the video, they did say that the C1 is the "most power-efficient modem ever in an iPhone." They also said that they have an "all new internal design for iPhone 16e that has been optimized for a larger battery."
Part of it is certainly the modem, but part of it is also likely to be the larger battery.
I'm really curious to see both how the Apple C1 performs and also how they changed up the internals for a larger battery and how much larger that battery is.
My Nokia 3310 lasted for over a week before recharge in 2000.
But how many hours of video playback?
My iPhone today last for less than a day while I dont watch any video on it, In fact, i barely use it currently, and it still drains batteries in no time. And yes, I disabled most background services and location services and run screen on low brightness - all the popular hacks to reduce battery usage.
I think the iphone does a lot more in the background than you might consider initially. Here is an experiment to try. Use your phone as you currently do, but turn on airplane mode when you aren't otherwise using the phone. Leave it on overnight too. You should only lose a few percentage overnight on airplane mode even with an old phone.
> I think the iphone does a lot more in the background than you might consider initially.
I understand that. My point being that 25 year old tech, before the real miniatyrization of circuits and power efficiency mind you, has 7x charge time and yet we are impressed by a few additional hours.
> Here is an experiment to try. Use your phone as you currently do, but turn on airplane mode when you aren't otherwise using the phone. Leave it on overnight too.
Sure but to what benefit?
I already addressed the tweaks i did do in a sibling comment. Putting the phone in airplane mode is no different than having a dead battery in terms of usability.
The difference is passive. Your phone is constantly pooling for both 4g, and 5g signal. Then using that to pool for notifications from apps.
This is stuff your Nokia didn’t do at the same scale. At best some sms at a significantly reduced polling rate.
My apps auto update in the background. Something my Nokia from 2007 didn’t do.
So there are many passively provided features but by definition they are not obvious to you and as such harder to appreciate.
If you have an iPhone: I use low power mode constantly. I have an automation to use it at 75% or less battery.
I get roughly 2 days of battery life without any YouTube usage.
> At best some sms at a significantly reduced polling rate.
SMS was piggybacked onto the control plane messaging. That is why the limit was 160 chars (only space available) and why texts can still work when the cell towers are overloaded.
> Putting the phone in airplane mode is no different than having a dead battery in terms of usability.
Well, it's about the same as using Nokia 3310.
We are talking about phones right? Things that make calls
> I understand that. My point being that 25 year old tech, before the real miniatyrization of circuits and power efficiency mind you, has 7x charge time and yet we are impressed by a few additional hours.
Yes because those phones by comparison do nothing so it’s a meaningless comparison.
It’s like arguing that we shouldn’t be impressed about EV range improvements because the bicycle exists.
> Yes because those phones by comparison do nothing so it’s a meaningless comparison.
We were able to call with them and send messages. On top of that I mostly use browser with my current phone on comparison, while not necessary.
So most people make heavy use of applications like TikTok, Instagram, Facebook etc, take photos and videos, real time video calling, getting directions etc. All whilst on a colour, high-resolution screen orders of magnitude better than the Nokia phones.
Acting like physics doesn’t exist and we should be able to get a month long battery life whilst doing all of the above is idiotic. No other way to describe it.
Well i use none of those apps, and I made a point about 25 years of technical progress, not heavy phone usage.
I see it got you riled up for some reason, but I cannot see why.
Try disabling Bluetooth from within the settings. My iPhone and iPad would drain like 50% of their batteries overnight if I left Bluetooth on. Now they drain about 10-15%. Still a lot for devices doing nothing, but better than before.
The drop down menu doesn't actually disable bluetooth so that alone won't work.
My 7 year old iphone lasts almost two days if I don't do anything too taxing (i.e. video). I don't think I do anything special. I guess YMMV.
How old is your phone/battery? When you say less than a day, do you mean 24 hrs or the period of time you're awake?
iPhone 13 mini, i mean 24 hours
Of course your phone has a short runtime, it both has a small battery and it's 3 years old so the battery's worn out. One of the main reasons why small phones remain a niche is that improvements in battery technology have been far outpaced by improvements in SoCs, so the easiest way to improve a device's battery life vs. the older model is to make it larger so it can fit a bigger battery. Even when it was new, the regular iPhone 13 had a 3220 mAh battery while the 13 mini had a 2400 mAh battery, despite both having the same processor. You end up sacrificing battery life to achieve the small size.
How low the quality bar has gotten! A device with a battery is now considered "worn out" after a measly 3 years?
They never said the device was worn out. The battery is and can be easily replaced.
All batteries degrade when you subject them to 1000 full recharge cycles.
The device is fine but the battery is worn out after some 1000 full discharge/recharge cycles.
If only one could open the back and replace the battery, the thing that has been known to everybody to wear out while the rest of the device is perfectly functional. One could only dream of such advanced technology. Maybe in 10 years.
You can. Or at least Apple can (for which they’ll charge you $80 or so). Sure, you can’t “hot swap” during the day, but if you like the size, it seems well worth the expense to get a new battery installed.
I know you're trying to make a point or something, but Apple or an independent service center will do just that for not much more than the price of the battery.
Lol, indeed! That was a given with the Nokia.
capitalism breeds innovation!
I have found low-battery mode to be very useful. I also have background updates turned off for most apps, but this greatly extends my battery life. When traveling, I turn it on by default at the beginning of the day.
My iPhone today last for less than a day while I dont watch any video on it, In fact, i barely use it currently, and it still drains batteries in no time.
Odd. I wonder if you have some apps updating in the background a lot.
Both my personal and my work iPhones are two-years-old, and both will last several days even with audio streaming.
I put my work phone in its drawer last Thursday, and when I took it out on Tuesday, it still had 11% left.
Tailscale and Wireguard absolutely murder the battery if the network is down/flakey.
When I was working the polls some months ago I was in an unusually low signal area and my phone ended up completely dying (not had that happen in a decade probably) due to Tailscale using 50% of my battery. Crazy bug.
Agreed. I so wish this was fixed. It’s so bad.
As many as I do on the smartphone I own in 2025
I haven't done this in a while but when I used to travel I'd get a local SIM and then put my home SIM in an old Android phone. Since the home SIM was roaming (expensive), I'd turn off data, I just wanted to receive calls and texts.
It'd usually last around 2 weeks with data off. I imagine an iPhone would fare even better.
ikr, it had amazing camera and ran the latest linux kernel /s
There's maybe other simplicity things that make it more battery efficient, like no dynamic island, only one camera, no magsafe, maybe stuff like that. But I am not an expert or anything
Not sure how much modem is contributing here. My guess is it is primarily due to the lack of ProMotion. 16e has a 60Hz display.
As does iPhone 16.
Ah right. I stand corrected.
Fairly misleading, since according to the comparison on their site (https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/?modelList=iphone-16,ip...) the slightly-bigger 6.3 inch iPhone 16 Pro gets 27 hours of video playback vs the 16e's 26 hours. (Regular iPhone 16 is 22 though.)
> iPhone 16e has the best battery life ever on a 6.1-inch iPhone
Yes I know, that's why it's misleading and not wrong.
What should they have said to make it non-misleading?
"It has more battery life than the iPhone 16 but less than the iPhone 16 Pro."
Bigger phones have bigger batteries, making it not a like for like comparison.
You can argue my comparison is not like-for-like enough, I'm simply arguing the comparison they chose is misleading.
This is a word salad.
no it isn't. also im not trying to make it punchy, im trying to clarify my point.
> im not trying to make it punchy, im trying to clarify my point
Your phrasing requires prior knowledge of the iPhone 16 and iPhone 16 Pro. It's also defining an interval without giving context to whether that interval is meaningful, where on the interval the 16e exists, and if any of the preceding are meaningful. The increased precision comes at the cost of conciseness and clarity.
Apple's, on the other hand, tells me that this is the best battery life an iPhone has had in this form factor. No unnecessary priors being pulled; I just need to know if I like a 6.1" screen.
I'm arguing that the 6.1" screen and 6.3" screen both represent the same form factor since they occupy the same slot in the iPhone product matrix.
That isn't misleading at all.
Of course it is, it makes you think they're talking about the non-Max size class iPhones when in fact they're splitting hairs about a 5mm difference in screen size to make it sound more impressive.
It's possible the battery chemistry has also changed. In the last 12-18 months, a bunch of Android phones have gotten large battery capacity upgrades, apparently thanks to silicon-carbon anodes being mature enough for mass production. Presumably Apple is now doing the sam thing.
> In the last 12-18 months, a bunch of Android phones have gotten large battery capacity upgrades
Can you give some examples? I'd like to test one out but I'm not buying the most recent product as a rule.
Oneplus 13 with lithium-silicon battery tech. This is the new tech which allows for higher capacity at the same size as before.
The OnePlus 13 and Oppo Find X8 both got 10% capacity upgrades over their previous iterations but with the same size/weight. The Honor Magic V2 also has a huge battery despite being a very slim foldable (5,000 mAh, compared to 3,000-3,500 on the ones from Samsung and Google).
Do signs point toward Apple adopting a unique, new cell chemistry for what will be their high-volume budget product for the next few years? It would have probably been a marketing line if so, similar to the C1 modem. A bigger battery doesn't imply new tech.
(Yes, the phone expensive now, but these SE-tier phones typically get discounts pretty quickly after release through carriers/non-apple retail; and then a bigger & formal sale price decrease when the next phone generation comes out.)
The overlap of the “cares about battery chemistry” and “purchases the lowest tier device” is probably close to 0
The C1 modem gets a line because Wall Street has seen that expense for a decade now, so this is a “win” for them. Battery chemistry is completely 3rd party, so they’ll claim the battery life improvement
The C1 modem is also not a feature that users care about, other than the increased battery life (that Apple does advertise). In fact, there will be concerns that the modem isn't as good as the existing ones in some edge case.
Putting the new modem into the new "budget" phone reduces expectations so that the impact of any issues will be blunted. Only when all the problems have been ironed out, that will be when the mainstream iPhones will get the new modem.
Yes which is why I explained making the modem a highlight is for Wall Street.
They acquired part of Intel and worked on this for many years. Shareholders want to know what the result of all that money and time was.
Wow. This is fantastic. This is the first time in nearly fifteen years they've had a feature I've actually wanted to purchase.
26 hours of battery life but you still have to charge it with a cable (they didn't add MagSafe). This might be a deal breaker for me…
Do you not use a case? Even cheap $20 cases have a magsafe ring in them which would make this work with the magsafe charger puck.
MagSafe chargers are Qi/Qi2 compatible. They'll charge without a magnetic ring.
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MX6X3LL/A/magsafe-charger...
Well yes of course. But the whole point of the ring is to align them perfectly so the efficiency is high and so you can use the phone without it falling off or losing alignment.
Using a case with the magnet ring in it solves this problem for the 16e without the ring in the phone itself.
I figure you knew it, but OP seemed to be unaware of this.
The article says it supports wireless charging.
It has wireless charging, just not MagSafe.
Yeah but the MagSafe charger I've spent $150 on doesn't work without the magnetic part.
It works fine, you just have to manually align it, like any other Qi charger.
I half suspect you're trolling based on this and your other comments under this post, but in case you're not, the Magsafe charger specs state they are Qi compatible.
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MX6X3LL/A/magsafe-charger...
PS: What MagSafe charger cost you $150? The regular Apple charger costs $39.Not OP but I have the Anker 3-in-1 Cube and it was $150 when I bought it a year or two ago. It charges a phone, watch, and airpods at the same time, and sparks joy for me.
https://www.anker.com/products/y1811
I got a Belkin one 5 years ago for about the same price. Charges my phone and watch! Awesome. Then the next year I got a 13 Pro Max, and the charging coils didn't line up. Phone won't charge. I swore to never buy $150 chargers ever again.
I paid $25 for something from China. It took a month to arrive, but it works great.
I assume it's some elaborate mounting thing if you spent that much on it, but actually a magsafe charger will act as a standard Qi charger as well.
Yep. Switched from iPhone to Android but still use my magsafe charger on my bed stand for the new phone.
I wonder if one of those MagSafe cases that basically "passthrough" the MagSafe magnets in the phone would work.
Just as well as any of the other ones for Android phones. Heck, you can even buy adhesive magnet rings to stick directly to any case or phone back, as long as you align them properly.
Absolutely. Plenty of even cheap cases have the magsafe ring to align the charger and then would work with the magsafe puck just fine.
Is MagSafe worth it? I think I've misaligned my iPhone 12 mini once on my Qi charger total over the past five years or so.
Well I have an ancient wireless charger (power unknown) that doubles as a stand that I got for free as swag from some conference. I just keep my magsafe supporting phone on it when I'm not using it and done.
Look ma, no magnets!
Then sell it and buy a $10 Qi charger.
does the target market for a cheap iphone spend $150 on a charger?
Literally just replaced the flimsy clip-on vent mount charger in my car with a ProClip custom fit mount and a Qi2 charger that ran me ~$115 all-in. I wanted longevity with this solution.
(See also: https://www.proclipusa.com/pages/product-finder)
I was pretty close to picking up the new SE4 to replace my iPhone 14 Pro and I'm balking at the lack of MagSafe on top of the $599 pricetag.
The improved battery life is BECAUSE there’s no MagSafe lol
You’ll need to answer for yourself: more battery life or MagSafe?
It is an iPhone 16, inside iPhone 14 Body, Single Camera from iPhone 16, with iPhone 14 OLED Screen, Apple Modem, Without UWB, Minus 1 GPU Core on A18, 7.5W MagSafe Charging same as iPhone 14. Wifi 6 instead of Wifi 7 on iPhone 16.
However at $599, higher than the rumoured $499 or $549 pricing. iPhone 14 previously at $599 and iPhone SE at $429 are now gone. Getting rid of iPhone 14 and iPhone SE as they are both using Lightning and not USB-C.
The lineup is a little strange. Will iPhone 15, currently at $699 dropped to $599 when they announce iPhone 17?
The most interesting part is of course the Modem. We will have to wait and see how it perform.
No MagSafe, only Qi (not Qi2).
800 nits typical brightness vs. 1000 for the 16, 1200 nits maximum brightness vs. 1600–2000 nits.
Notch vs. dynamic island, of course.
> No MagSafe, only Qi.
Qi2 is based on Magsafe.
https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/3/23538131/qi2-wireless-char...
I know, but the official specs and comparison page explicitly only say Qi (with 7.5 W) for the 16e where they say MagSafe and Qi2 (with 25 W) for the iPhone 16. The comparison page is also lacking the MagSafe symbol for the 16e.
Qi2 doesn’t require the magnetic component however.
True but the alignment magnets of MagSafe and Qi2 were a huge quality of life improvement. You are probably better off just using USB to charge this one
"Any device labeled Qi2 is MPP and must include magnets.”
https://www.wired.com/story/what-is-qi2-wireless-charging/
> Qi2 is based on Magsafe.
That's an insult to all of the engineering that went into Qi.
The Magsafe specification was an attempt to create the new Lightning connector ecosystem that backfired spectacularly and blew up in Apple's face. It's nothing more than magnets and DRM layered on top of a regular Qi charger.
Naturally Apple used the DRM to limit the charging speeds of their phones when paired with regular Qi chargers. There's a practical reason for this which is how Apple tried to justify their outrageous licensing fee to implement Magsafe.
Unfortunately for Apple, manufacturers mostly said no to Magsafe licensing and Apple's user based complained to Apple that their phones wouldn't charge at the rated speeds of the Qi chargers they bought.
This put Apple in an awkward position where they could tell their users to only buy MagSafe devices, compromise on safety to appease users, or give up on Magsafe being proprietary. Thankfully they chose the later.
Qi2 isn't Magsafe, Qi2 incorporated Magsafe because it improves the standard.
Don't let Apple marketing fool you into thinking Apple is doing this altruistically.
From the article linked above:
> With the blessing of competitors, Apple is about to change the Qi wireless standard itself. It’s contributing to a new version of Qi that works much like MagSafe — magnets, authentication, and all.
"Qi2 is based on Magsafe" is not the same as "Apple is... contributing to a new version of Qi"
Your statement implies that Qi2 used Magsafe as a starting point or that it's primarily based on Magsafe. Your statement is inaccurate and would lead people to think that Qi2 was mostly an Apple design.
> Your statement implies that Qi2 used Magsafe as a starting point or that it's primarily based on Magsafe. Your statement is inaccurate and would lead people to think that Qi2 was mostly an Apple design.
You'd be wrong, though. Apple is on the WPC membership and has heavy influence over their spec definitions. They do this with many standards. They sit on the standards body as contributing members, and influence the specifications in ways they see as beneficial. They did this with USB (especially USB-C), they do this with MIPI standards, and they do this with WPC.
When standards organizations move too slow (which, is pretty much always), companies like Apple will move to make proprietary versions of a thing usually based on drafts of standards that are taking too long.
…it is. Qi2 is basically a copy-paste of MagSafe
I think their point was that the wireless MagSafe was basically a copy-paste of Qi, so it wasn't "mostly an Apple design" to begin with. "Qi2 is a copy-paste of MagSafe" (or "Qi2 is based on MagSafe") makes it sound a bit like they threw out the original Qi in favor of Apple's completely home-grown alternative, which comes with inaccurate connotations of who actually did the important work.
It's subjective how important the history is and how important Apple's contributions are, but that seems to be what they were getting at.
MagSafe was a branch of Qi that's been merged back to main.
So what I'm seeing is that Qi2 is based on MagSafe then.
MagSafe is just a branch of Qi that was merged back into main.
So Qi2's ancestor is MagSafe. Got it.
Magsafe sticker is is 1$ for a pack of 10 so it's really not a problem.
But you need to align it perfectly.
I've had good luck with cases that have the magnet bit built in
Assuming they do it correctly. There was a series of Pixel cases (the 9s, I think?) where they used the same alignment between the Pro and non-Pro Pixels on the case, despite the coils not being in the same location on the actual phones... which apparently caused poor/non-existent charging and excessive heat.
The A18 in the 16e is also binned, one less GPU core compared to the regular 16.
> The most interesting part is of course the Modem.
In addition, they are said to have replaced the WiFi/Bluetooth chip with one developed in-house.
> Apple Inc.’s ambitious plan to create in-house components for its devices will include switching to a homegrown chip for Bluetooth and Wi-Fi connections starting next year, a move that will replace some parts currently provided by Broadcom Inc.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-12-12/apple-nea...
The rumors called out improved battery life as an upside.
Hopefully these new cellular, wifi and bluetooth basebands can avoid the zero-day fame of their predecessors.
In this specific case, I imagine the system is much more secure. The Broadcom chip and Qualcomm chip each represented their own separate attack surface. Even without hacking the AP those chips were still a problem.
I would assume that Apple's new firmware would have been written in a memory safe language.
They did make some noise about enabling Swift for embedded development at last years WWDC.
Although Qualcomm's big zero day last year was related to the DSP and not the baseband, I believe.
Here’s hoping. Bets on Swift v Rust?
I swear if they wrote a modem from scratch in C that’s a major own goal
There's a number of firmware jobs on their website at the moment. All of them ask for C or C++ experience - I haven't seen anything that's asking for Rust or Embedded Swift experience.
E.g.: https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/details/200579953/embedded-5g-4...
Was the modem codebase inherited from Intel?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-16/apple-pro... (https://archive.ph/A2UUI)
> One major development snag involves the software used to power the modem, some of which was acquired from Intel. The Intel code wasn’t up to the task, and most of it had to be rewritten from scratch, people involved in the project said. As Apple engineers sought to add new features, existing capabilities would break, and the modem wouldn’t work properly.
Let the Apple C++ vs Qualcomm C++ zero day defense games begin!
Definitely Swift https://swift.org/blog/embedded-swift-examples/
It’s C(++) judging by the strings in the firmware
Is the firmware available somewhere already?
Yes it’s on the update channels
>I would assume that Apple's new firmware would have been written in a memory safe language.
Memory safe languages don't protect from human programmer complacency and stupidity, or from incidental alphabet agency backdoors.
Sure, but they do protect from a massive swath of real attacks
Don’t guarantee complete safety but do eliminate a massive attack surface
The patch notes for Qualcomm's big zero day exploit last year certainly gives the impression that this was yet another example of a memory safety error.
> According to the patch instructions, the fix works by adding direct memory access handle references.
https://www.techtarget.com/searchsecurity/news/366612994/Hig...
Hard-to-differentiate product offerings tend to drive people into the waiting arms of higher-spec (and cost) products, while still allowing a company to make a claim for a certain pricepoint.
You see this in telecom a lot.
I wish they would make a mini version of this, it would be perfect. After the 13 Mini, us small phone lovers are screwed.
You must let go. This not happening anymore. That boat sailed for all OEMs. It will just lead to heartache and defeat and frustration or a combo of these.
The good news: by the time parent's 13 dies, we'll all have computers embedded in our brains! Checkmate!
My usual plug for: https://smallandroidphone.com/
I think Eric Migicovsky, the founder of Pebble, has decided he will have a go at an iPhone 13 mini sized android phone, since nothing exists in that space anymore.
Android rather than iPhone, but I've also recently given up hoping Apple would release a small phone. I recently bought a used iPhone 13 mini when my minor-regret-sized SE 2022 started playing up and I saw that all the rumours pointed at this 16E being huge.
holding onto my iPhone 13 Mini for dear life.
Same here with 12 mini. Honestly even this feels larger than needed, but any bigger? Ridiculous.
On the bright side, when your mini dies, there will likely be better flips out there. The Z Flip 6 isn't that bad currently, and I really did enjoy how much pocket space it saved, but if you're stuck to Apple it's another 2 years before they release their attempt.
I have considered flip phones as a replacement for a mini but it's just not the same thing at all when it comes to a smartphone.
It makes the phone less durable for a useless screen size, its pocket ability isn't much better because it is just bulkier (easier to enter in small pockets, but bigger deformation and feel) and it's just less convenient because you have to open it anytime you want to use it.
There is no replacement for a small phone, some manufacturer has to do it.
I was considering Samsung Z Flip 6 or Motorola Razr 50 Ultra (sold as Razr+ in the US), but both are almost twice as thick as iPhone 13 Mini. That doesn't spark joy.
its not only about size but related to this smartphone weight. I find iphones quite heavy. Used to have iphone XS and now having iphone 13 mini and enjoying it more. Flip phones are even heavier.
still loving my 12mini. size is perfect, batt is only issue.
Lots of Android options available, and much more affordable.
I don't think there is any mainstream Android phone available that is of 12/13 Mini size. In fact there might not be a mainstream one that is smaller than the current base iPhone size.
Regarding your first statement: yes, sadly.
Regarding your second one, I have some good news though: ASUS Zenfone 10 is smaller than iPhone 16 by 1.1mm x 3.5mm, Samsung S24 (base model) is 0.6mm x 1.0mm smaller, and Sony Xperia 5 V is only slightly bigger.
I know there used to be such a huge range of Android phone sizes, that there was likely to be a phone in the size you wanted, and you acknowledged that the phones you were listing were not the same size as the 12/13 mini...
But the Sony suggested is slightly bigger than the iPhone 16 in 2/3 of the dimensions and this comment thread is lamenting how big the iPhone 16 is! I think people who see the iPhone 16 as so large it is not an option are unlikely to consider switching to Android for an even larger phone.
It's a shame, because Sony used to make smaller phones with only slightly lower specs than their flagship phones. I also still associate them with making sensibly-sized alternatives, even though they don't anymore.
iPhone size is already too big (imho!). So Sony one is anything but that. Asus ZFs? Nope, anything but mainstream. These never released in many geographies including my country - the most populous on the planet and no it was not even too costly for here - and yes, they already have a sales/distributor channel/base here so they didn't have to setup anything.
There really isn't anything mainstream out there at all. Why? Majority, clear majority, of people rejected smaller size phones sadly.
Not at the same size (I spent a lot of time looking).
"Plenty of cheap houses in Minnesota!"
$599, same as the Mac Mini M4 :-)
Yeah, but this has a screen built in and you can actually put it in your pocket.
https://sidetalking.com/original/
Don't limit yourself ...
For anyone else whose browser is configured to not ask where to save files before downloading, you may notice that the site linked above initiates a download of a MIDI file named "Jive_Talkin.mid." It does appear to be safe according to VirusTotal: https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/896eadff63581cb1a3f0e354...
This page works best in Internet Explorer. You would actually hear the music the authors intended you to hear.
PowerShell to the rescue:
Is there a recommended resolution for viewing too?
But if you have an older pant that used to store an iPhone of 4.x inch size then it might not be as cozy as you knew it. Just saying.
> The lineup is a little strange.
They have Macs they call Macbook Airs, but their Macbooks look like "Air" Macbooks, they really should have swapped the names on those models long ago.
The no-adjective MacBook hasn’t been sold for years. It’s just Air and Pro again now.
Makes sense, it never made sense to downgrade, I guess the Air should drop "Air" moving forward then...
It's better this way. It's clear whether someone means any macbook, or just the non-pro, or just the pro.
They haven’t sold the MacBook you’re talking about since 2019.
The 12" MacBook Abomination was a short-lived, badly-designed, performance-limited computer. Apple doesn’t sell them anymore, and modern Airs are very respectable computers.
... except for the fact that they refuse to re-issue the second greatest laptop form facter of all time: the 11" MBA.
First place, obviously, goes to the Toshiba Libretto.
Because the 13" is close to the same physical size as the old 11
It really isn't. While it's only .12" wider, it's almost an inch deeper and over 5oz heavier.
Come on. First place has gotta be the PowerBook 100.
PowerBook Duo or 2400C - surely! :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_Duo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_2400c
Wow - how was I impressed with a laptop "only" weighing 2kg?!
I thought with the emphasis on repair within the geek community today we'd go for the Macintosh Portable, which is so modular and repairable that Jean-Louis Gassée was able to build it directly on stage when introducing it.
Nope. ThinkPad with the butterfly keyboard.
> 7.5W MagSafe Charging same as iPhone 14
No MagSafe here
Great description. But what is UWB?
“Ultra Wide Band”, used for finding things at short range.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-wideband
Ultra Wide Band - it's how AirTags and other things give you that precise finding feature, I believe.
The UWB ommission is a bit sad - I have it on my 13 Mini and it's very handy for finding lost keys. Still, I guess segmenters going to segment
It's also used to unlock some cars.
ultra wide band
[dead]
At this point there’s only really one thing I want from an iPhone and that’s an option for a 12/13 mini sized device again. Surely those phones didn’t sell so few that it’s not worth doing at all?
The iPhone 13 Mini all by itself sold about the half of the rate of the entire Google Pixel lineup. There is a market for small phones from a reputable manufacturer.
Source:
Google shipped about 10 million Pixel phones in a year https://9to5google.com/2024/02/22/pixel-2023/
iPhone Mini accounted for about 3% of iPhone sales https://9to5mac.com/2022/04/21/cirp-iphone-13-best-selling-l...
iPhones sell about 200 million units per year https://www.demandsage.com/iphone-user-statistics/
200 million * 0.03 = 6 million iPhone Minis per year
The thing I'd add is that Apple often achieves what it does by doing less. People assume that because Apple makes great things that they can make a lot of different great things. But that's where a lot of other companies falter: they make too many different things to really make a few great things.
Small phones are also difficult. Memory, processors, and batteries don't shrink. For an iPhone mini, they're going to be shipping essentially the same chips taking up the same amount of space. That space is going to have to come at the expense of things like the battery and cooling. It's a lot easier to engineer something with looser tolerances. If you have a giant phone, it's easy to have extra room to keep the phone cool and stuff in a battery.
It also probably meant limiting some choices for the rest of the iPhone lineup. Apple wants to be able to re-use components and to some extent it's going to mean that Apple either has to make choices that work for both a 6.1" and 5.4" form factor or do separate things.
There is some demand for an iPhone mini. I love the iPhone mini. I also see the challenge for Apple.
I think there's also a reason why we haven't seen a successful Android mini phone. It's hard to make a mini phone and the sales numbers are comparatively small.
But maybe we'll see an iPhone mini in a few years time. If Apple can create an integrated CPU/modem/WiFi/Bluetooth chip, that could end up saving a decent amount of space while also reducing power requirements. Maybe we'll be able to go SIM-less around the world and that could save space.
At the same time, it's hard to make the same number of people make another, more challenging form factor and it's hard to scale out with more people too. Plus, do you put your best engineers on the hardest project (the mini) when it's only 3% of sales? Or do you hire new, less experienced, possibly lower skilled people for that and hope you don't put out a product that isn't good?
It's a tough challenge for a tiny amount of sales which, ultimately, aren't going to decide to leave Apple for Android where they also can't get a small phone.
> they make too many different things to really make a few great things
While true of a company like Samsung I don't think this explains the lack of a small iPhone. Apple is only going for simple relative to someone like Samsung. They now have FIVE current models, spanning what is effectively two screen sizes (but actually four, which is worse, because now you're spreading yourself across FOUR form factors minimum.)
So even Apple isn't playing by the "too many different things" rule. In reality they could accomplish all this with two models: a big one and a small one. Add in a "mini" size and now you have three models, plus much better variety.
I won't quibble about what is best for Apple's bottom line though; I assume they know better than me. But I will quibble about neglecting what people are asking for while giving them things they aren't asking for.
> Small phones are also difficult.
No, they aren't. It used to be that big phones were difficult. Then screens got cheaper, and now they choose BIG every. single. time. They don't choose big because it's easy, they choose it because it sells better.
If small phones are difficult, why are phones getting larger as battery and semiconductor tech continues to improve?
Advances in tech should allow phones to be smaller than ever for the same capabilities, or more capabilities for the same size than ever before.
> why are phones getting larger as battery and semiconductor tech continues to improve?
I don't doubt that the average phone has grown in size, the base iPhone has stayed roughly the same size for 7 years at this point. The 16 is only 0.15"x0.03"x0.01" larger than the iPhone X from 2017 and the base iPhone peaked in height and width all the way back in 2019 with the iPhone 11.
I think the simple answer is that they've pretty much found the sweet spot and even if there are people out there who want a smaller phone, most of them would still rather have the same size phone with more capability.
I just wish there'd be a modern phone with the same form factor as the 2013 Moto X. Actually I see that the Jelly Max is extremely close in size to the 2013 Moto X. Maybe it will be my future phone.
“Big screen goooood” - social media addicted consumers
I had a couple of Max models but went back down to regular size because it was too big. However, Mini is just too small for me to handle well any more. I make too many mistakes on the smaller on-screen keyboard, and forget reading on it without putting on my glasses first.
I could't care less what size other people use, and I use social media maybe half an hour a day, if that. The regular sized iPhones are the happy size for my older eyes and thumbs.
Expectations have changed. You can't ship a phone now that has the same capabilities as the iPhone 3GS.
The battery may be smaller, but the power draw of the GPU and screen will also be smaller.
> The iPhone 13 Mini all by itself sold about the half of the rate of the entire Google Pixel lineup.
How much of that was due to the SE 2 being available at a better price while meeting most prospective customers needs?
Personally I was looking forward to an upgrade... but not now.
A handful of years ago, before anyone had figured out how to properly optimize for attention, we all had small-screen phones. The “small phone” problem is really just that it’s not as addictive. Apple wants you to spend more time on-screen [0] and so do you [1.] I really hope you’re not thinking about spending less time on-screen. Technology companies love you and care about you. They usually know what’s best. You should probably just get a bigger screen.
[0] see: massive financial incentives, developer tooling to help maximize engagement, product design focused on extended use, notoriously useless screen time feature etc
[1] we don’t have exact mini sales, but estimates are they were around 6% of total iPhone sales (aka: low, but billions a year in revenue, enough to keep barring other incentives) - more revenue than many other Apple products or the SE, for example. Even if you’re Apple you don’t axe billions in revenue for nothing!
Is there actual research suggesting smaller screens promote less screen time?
> I really hope you’re not thinking about spending less time on-screen.
Your sarcastic tone reminds me of a Steve Jobs interview.
> In 2010, a New York Times reporter had a conversation that revealed a lot about the life of the founder of Apple. Nick Bilton commented, “Your kids must love the iPad, right?” After the launch of the device. Jobs replied, “They haven't used it. We limit the amount of technology our children use at home. "
Yeah, they know what it is that they are doing to the world. And they do not care, profits > humanity.
The best part about my 12 mini is that it's such a pain to use sometimes on the modern web that it discourages unnecessary browsing. Alas, the battery was already subpar on it and now is quite bad, so I'll probably pick up this SE.
In the reviews I read, the 13 mini was a significant upgrade in battery life, compared with the 12 mini. Since your 12 mini is now old, even a used 13 mini (with good battery health) would probably be a significant upgrade. Apple battery replacements for these are not crazy prices either. A used but pristine 13 mini with battery replaced by Apple would probably be much, much cheaper than a 16e.
If I sound like I'm trying to influence you're decision, my apologies! I really disliked the size of the SE 2022, which I bought to replace the last really good Apple phone (SE 2016), and that was much smaller than the 16e. I should have gone straight to the 13 mini - I was put off by no bezels, Face ID, and I guess like a sucker I wanted to buy another SE because I liked the one I had so much. :)
100% this, I spend less time glued to my phone and more time in the real world as a result, because of both the smaller size and the battery life
I consider this a feature
So you are saying you'll happily pay even more for an even smaller screen and worser battery life :)
I would be happy to pay flagship iphone prices for a flagship quality mini/SE.
I'd just spend the $80 or so to have Apple change the battery. It's still a good phone.
Never felt that way about my 13 mini
Do you still own it? I've kept my 13 mini so far, but I hope the browsing or app experience doesn't degrade anytime soon (battery's still great.)
I still have my 13 mini, but it is feeling somewhat slower with each major iOS release. Still I can probably get a few more years out of it.
Maybe the battery. I’m typing this on my 13 mini and it’s as fast as it’s ever been.
I still have apple care+ on mine. I knew they will probably never make a new one again. I use it without a case, so when I drop it break the screen or something, I just get an express replacement. There is a small fee ($100 or something) and I basically get a brand new iPhone mini. Hopefully their replacement stock last for a while.
The maximum battery capacity is showing 83%, which seems decent. The phone is over 3 years old now. And I love the Mini form factor. I want something that fits in my pocket...
83% is pretty bad. You might be surprised if you put a new battery in it.
I have two (personal and work); browsing websites is fine in a pinch, but it's not nearly as fast as the iPhone 16 Pro that's in my drawer right now and I run into more Safari crashes than before. (I blame the modern web for that, not the phone.)
I never had safari crash on mine except that one website from here a while back. Not sure what it was .
If they can standardize their whole lineup around two sizes, regular and max, then I think it will be a very hard sell to add extra work and complexity for the production lines for a smaller size that sells both lower volumes and lower price. Don't get me wrong, I love the Mini and have one right now, but from a business management perspective I can totally see how getting rid of it makes sense.
Another aspect that I think is often missed is that the Mini physically cannot offer the same battery life as other iPhones. Many say they don't mind this, but over time as the battery life deteriorates, it becomes a pain point all the same. I think that is another aspect of why they don't like the small form factor.
Battery life deteriorating is only a pain point because they make it so users can't trivially service the battery themselves. It is amazing seeing the walk back over the years from sensible affordances to the consumer to binning those features behind expensive repairs. I still remember my ibook where you could pop out the keyboard with your fingers and pop out the battery with a dime. I remember when they released the unibody macbook and they gave you a simple clasp to access both the battery and the hard drive as they were anticipating consumers shifting to SSDs in the near future in 2010 and wanted to offer an affordance. Slowly that went away. The latch went away for a dozen small screws that are easy to strip and lose. Eventually the ability to change out the drive or the battery yourself went away too. Slippery slope of setting up user expectations for a worse version of the product in a few generations from certain standpoints. Sure it is faster but imagine if it was faster and also as serviceable as devices used to be. There isn't good reason for it other than to gouge you when you spec out your macbook at rates that are always at a convenient premium over today's prices for these hardware.
Exactly. I had this MacBook. It is legendary, they made it at a great price point with most of the qualities and features of the more expensive Pros of the time. It didn't last long, they axed it the next year, figuring they were leaving money on the table. Its weakness was the terrible iGPU in the Intel chip, you couldn't do much serious graphical work with it until you would get the spinner of doom.
I think this is really "peak Apple" era. Most stuff they did after Jobs death is re-heated or poorly designed/conceived.
Apple is just a luxury brand nowadays because they have lost focus on the user, it's a bit maddening that they are getting so rich from it but I guess that's how it is...
EU mandate for removable batteries will restore lost flexibility.
Even repair/replace is improving, with new aftermarket storage upgrades for Macbooks.
> I think it will be a very hard sell to add extra work for the production lines for a smaller size
The Toyota Corolla sells 1 million units a year worldwide - it's totally practical and realistic to set up a production line to make 1 million devices a year.
Apple sells 200 million iphones a year.
That's why they're happy to make the iPhone 16, 16 Plus, 16 Pro, 16 Pro Max and 16e and offer them in 4-5 colours per model as well.
It's something else - probably sales.
Is there also an added effort around making iOS work on the smaller screen size/resolution as well though?
If they can standardise those, they might end up with an easier OS to maintain once the Mini (sadly) is no longer supported
AFAIK it's 360px wide, the same as on larger phones. You can of course enable an accessibility option to take it down to 320px width, which was the iOS standard for almost a decade and only stopped being a standard iOS resolution when they killed off the iPod touch.
You can zoom the screen anyway.
AFAIK Samsung doesn’t offer any mini devices either. If that’s true, it’s probably for the same reasons Apple doesn’t.
Well, in the case of Samsung, I imagine they would rather not want to in order to promote their Z Flip series instead. More compact than any Mini version would potentially be. Though I guess for the people who like their phones to be able to fit in their hand, it doesn't make much of a difference.
I am still using my 13 Mini. I got it, because I knew that it would be the last Mini Apple does.
I plan to use it, until I need to charge the battery every 15 minutes.
Just so you know, the batteries are replaceable ;)
Same boat, though with battery replacements, I think what will actually do me in and force me to downgrade to a newer model will be when they stop supporting OS security upgrades. I'm perfectly happy to keep replacing the screen protector and battery until that point.
Then replace the battery and carry on using it?
May end up doing that. We'll see.
I also write software for these beasties, and it may well be that I won't be able to justify avoiding getting one that has Apple Intelligence.
Eventually, Apple (and 3p developers) will abandon you, and you'll need to throw away a perfectly good phone and take another step on the treadmill.
I'm still hanging on to my perfectly working iPhone 7, while app developers tell me to fuck off left and right. It does everything I want a phone to do, but developers consider "old phones" to be icky and stop supporting them.
Ultimately, one of the cameras in my iPhone 7 failed, and I replaced it with an SE3 - which was indistinguishable from the 7 - but another issue was patches.
With very little skill, I found I could duplicate this issue on my iPhone 7 running the latest supported version of iOS: https://joshua.hu/apple-ios-patched-unpatched-vulnerabilitie...
Yup - it was the same for me with the 2016 SE. Still runs perfectly fine, we're still doing the same old CRUD web shit for apps, but apparently now our apps are so much more advanced that there's no possible way they could keep supporting that "legacy" hardware.
https://blog.bschwind.com/2025/01/11/the-original-iphone-se-...
I'm totally with you, with that article. It is terrible how owners of slightly-old hardware are treated by software developers. Leaving potentially millions of users out in the cold because they just can't be bothered to keep a maintenance branch around and backport a few fixes to it. For apps that are by and large not complicated. So much waste sacrificed at the altar of developer comfort!
My low-end test unit is an old SE (running 15). I'm an iOS native developer. The screen size is the main reason I test with it.
However, these days, I usually release with minimum support beginning with iOS 16, because I am a one-man shop.
My stuff will usually run in 15, though.
Eventually yes, but the 13 is less than 3.5 years old and will likely receive iOS updates for another 3.5 years. And most apps support one or two iOS versions into the past. I agree it’s not ideal, but ~8 years of use isn’t that bad either.
I still use 1st Gen SE with 4 inch screen.
I would have kept using mine if it didn't have issues dropping calls and also certain app incompatibilities that began to be frusterating. It is actually a lot better of an iphone than my newer SE2. It is much faster on the OS it runs than this SE2 on ios 15. Spotlight search is instantaneous on the old SE. On the SE2 it might hang in spotlight for 5 seconds or longer.
I use both 1st and 2nd at the same time. 1st as phone, 2nd as a PDA.
I'm still on iPhone 7+… It gets a new battery every 2-3 years and works great. I love how it has a big screen but feels much smaller and thinner in my pocket than any modern iPhone. I was really looking forward to this new "SE4", but the 7.5W charging and lack of magsafe is a deal breaker for a phone that in my country costs ~900 usd.
I have a 13 mini that is hanging on by a thread and you will pry it from my hand (because I can actually hold onto it). I'm actually considering finding a refub because I prefer my old-fashioned artillery to the 6.1".
The larger phones barely fit in pockets, fit poorly in running packs/biking gear and are just generally inconvienient for being active with them.
Refurbs are out there. I got two a few months ago. Battery health on both is around 85% though.
It might be a good idea to just buy the 13 mini. It's not like anything on phones got any better in the last 4 years. And it's still available, for roughly 30% less compared to before it was discontinued by Apple. Which might be the answer to your question actually.
Is any place actually selling them new?
The Mini didn't sell well...for an iPhone.
I have a 13 mini and will use it until it dies...just like the SE before it.
They stopped with the mini during COVID
So many people are interested in which phone I have. It’s a 12mini. Won’t upgrade to 13mini bc that doesn’t make any sense.
I simply don’t want a bulky phone.
Based on previous conversations on this topic, I think the issue is that people don't actually prioritise the mini size above all else.
In other words whatever size the audience is for a mini phone they are further fragmented into people who want a flagship phone vs mid range phone vs budget phone.
And those market segments are too small to make it worth Apple or even most android manufacturers effort.
Exactly. So many people commented on tech sites that they loved the mini sized device but didn’t buy it because they want a pro spec mini. Like there aren’t any trade offs by making the phone smaller. Apple arguably made the best small phone ever made and plenty of supposedly small phone lovers turned their nose up at it. Turns out even they value other things more than the size.
I'm still using my iphone12 mini and still holding out that someone makes a similar sized phone. I would love to see a slightly thicker version to accommodate a larger batter and no camera bump, but at this point a small, thick phone seems almost unimaginable.
I am actually optimistic that we might get the mini again now the 16e is priced at $599. There is a space for Mini at $499.
Part of the problem with Mini was its battery life. It seems 16e is improving on exactly that. Although I think it wont be 5.4" again since it was too small compared to the rest of the line up where it is usually 20% bigger screen to next size up.
May be 5.6" or even 5.8" as the original X.
I don’t think there is space, because the production costs of a mini model aren’t substantially lower. Remember that when the 12 mini launched, its price was the same as the 11, and the regular 12 got $100 more expensive.
The mini did exactly and precisely bump up the whole product range pricing. So the regular iPhone 12 got to $799 instead of $699. A 16e Mini will make the 16e product range starts at $499.
I just don’t think that a 16e mini at $499 would give Apple enough margin. The Face ID components are reportedly not cheap, OLED is also more expensive than LCD, they didn’t up the price to $599 just for fun.
OLED is not expensive and can be cheaper than LCD. There is nothing expensive about BOM in iPhone 16e. Face ID used in the current notch form is also not expensive. We are 7 years into FaceID component already. There are reason why Android could pay Qualcomm for SoC while still selling for $199. It is selling 16e at 14 price range with one camera less, which is actually a relatively expensive part in terms of BOM and extra GB of memory. Along with cost saving of its own modem, the $599 is there not to cannibalise sales on 16 which is the heavy margin product range.
Rumor is that the 17 will have an Air edition that will be thinner/lighter. It won't help the reach issues much but will make them nicer to hold for extended periods of time. IME the minis are nice because of both weight and the ability to comfortably use with one hand.
The Air model will be 6.6”. It will be lighter than the Plus model it replaces, but I wouldn’t necessarily expect it to be lighter than the regular models. And certainly not usable with one hand.
Where is it being reliably reported that it's a 6.6" model? Seems like it's still pretty early to know something like this with any certainty.
And won't fit well in a pocket. :(
Yep. A 6.1” Air would have been nice, but at 6.6” it’s kind of in a weird place.
Size/dimension is the problem!
With the C1 modem and in-house wifi/bluetooth, here's hoping that Apple is ready to revisit the mini-sized phone!
It's especially disappointing to see that they killed off the SE with this release, as it was the previous inexpensive and smaller option. The screen alone on this new 16e is larger across the diagonal than the entire device on the SE 3rd edition, and the SE famously had the traditional huge bezel.
Still using 12 mini! I'll take it to the grave with me
Even if they only do one every 4 years.
still using my 13 mini after 3.5 years, the battery is at 84%, still good for 1.5 day of light usage.
Still using my SE from 2016.
Yes please. My new job just provided me with a new phone, but all the models are just too big. I guess I’ll get used to it, but I’d rather have the current features in a Mini body.
I want a 4 inch screen. Like 1st Gen SE.
> Surely those phones didn’t sell so few that it’s not worth doing at all?
That is literally what happened.
Staying on my 13 mini until someone makes a dumb phone that doesn’t suck.
They’ll be flipping the small-size formula by making it a premium feature, and calling it “Air” in the next couple of releases.
Apple leans its weight heavily on controversial smartphone changes and defines trends for the rest of the industry, even when it's not the first company to do so. When it removed the headphone jack, introduced the screen notch, or added a camera bump, everyone followed afterward despite the grumbling.
So keeping that in mind, regarding the modem, I remember prior comments about it being near-impossible or extremely difficult for Apple to cut out Qualcomm because of the decentralized network of mobile towers, operators, proprietary information, legacy cruft, edge cases, hardware and geographical testing, etc., which Qualcomm handles as part of its value-add. If Apple starts spearheading changes in how phone modems work, could we imagine mobile towers playing along and converging? Or is it more entrenched than that?
Prior discussion
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41287977
> extremely difficult for Apple to cut out Qualcomm
it was extremely difficult, they have been working on this since at least ~6 years, maybe longer and involved buying intel 5G modem business
it also is lacking UWB which either Apple has given up on or is bringing back with future revisions of their modem
My best guess is that it’s for differentiation. For example, the SE never had Qi when the rest of the lineup did.
My iPhone SE 2 right next to me is charging on its Qi puck right now. The SE have never had Magsafe, which allows a phone to be charged aligned with magnets.
>If Apple starts spearheading changes in how phone modems work, could we imagine mobile towers playing along and converging? Or is it more entrenched than that?
Do You mean Telco Equipment vendor converging? Well first thing is that 4g / 5G or 3GPP is an open standard so anyone could implement it. Second is that there are only a few Telco Equipment vendor left already. There will still be insane amount of testing required to be done even if everyone were to use the same equipment. The amount of variables such as spectrum, regulations requirements, physical space and density as well as weather difference.
> extremely difficult for Apple to cut out Qualcomm
4G and above are open standards, and Samsung, Huawei and MediaTek have all previously created their own cellular modem implementations.
It's not easy, but if your market share is big enough, you come out ahead.
Unfortunately, the worst example they set is the locked-down device + an app store.
Not seeing examples of comments claiming it being "near-impossible" in your linked discussion. Most of those comments are just grumbling about eSIMs.
I don't think anyone thought it was literally impossible, just really, really hard and with a ton of corner cases and micro-optimizations necessary. But remember, they've been at this for a long time now: they bought Intel's modem business in 2019 and Intel presumably had several years worth of work on it before that. I guess this is the year when they've ground out enough of the bugs to at least ship it on a non-flagship device.
The other phonemakers didn't grumble about the jack because they realized they could pull the same scam
Oh please. They all made fun of it and THEN switched a year later
Takes a year to make whatever their copy of AirPods was
Sure but they also leaned heavily into the “we still have an aux jack hurr hurr hurr” while they figured out how to copy Apple
I'm wondering if Samsung was 90% working on their earbuds and 10% hoping they'd see people switch from iPhone (which turns out didn't happen)
Not all though. Sony retains the jack, screen without cutouts and the SD slot.
They really did themselves dirty calling it a notch, drawing attention to the loss of space. They should have used something like "extra screen ears" - implying you are getting some extra space around the sensors.
Did Apple themselves actually call it that? On the debut, I think they only called it the "true depth camera system" https://youtu.be/aEoVcYQ8caM?si=bf2Xxv7VeFPONVyO&t=482
Scanning through, it was pretty silly how much the iPhone X was about mocapped emojis.
I mean Apple wasn't the first to drop the jack either, there were other brands that had.
Let's see... it's replacing the SE, which is no longer on Apple's website. It's more expensive than the SE, at $599 vs $429. It's a pretty substantial hardware upgrade over the SE, including something like 75% more battery life by Apple's numbers, but it's also noticeably bigger.
Apple's own comparison tool is useful: https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/?modelList=iphone-16e,i...
The price hike is the major turn off point. Even as a non Apple person I was on the verge of getting the new "SE" if it's in the price range of the old SE line up.
But not for 600 USD, that's a bit too much.
The market for a cheaper iphone like this has always been just buying a 4 year old phone for like $0-small few hundred from your carrier. Makes no sense for apple to push a new product in this segment when their own supply eats it. And all they really offer in the se is a new old iphone anyhow making use of old components they have spare inventory available or on order from their vendors remaining supply lines.
The Pixel 'a' line has been very good at this, the current 8a is the best value of the whole Pixel lineup, and it's way cheaper than this 16e.
You are missing the point.
These types of "budget" phones that Apple does are for people who can't/won't buy the flagship (because too expensive) but wouldn't buy something second-hand either.
There are a LOT of people like that. It is not rational at all; they would rather buy something shittier for their money than get more value. My grandparents are like that.
To buy in the second-hand market you need to have some knowledge about how phones compare in the first place, even if you use a platform that minimizes the risks.
So, it's not the same market at all, and Apple is pushing their luck even more with a pricing way too high for what is essentially a 3 years old phones at best (the chip makes little difference to the typical user of these phones).
>It is not rational at all; they would rather buy something shittier for their money than get more value. My grandparents are like that.
It's entirely rational. I bought plenty of used phones, and even repaired them myself because I couldn't afford new ones. Would not do that again.
The risk of getting scammed, or getting a phone with issues is too high. Both have happened to me in the past. It can even be dangerous if someone swapped out the battery with a cheapo fire hazard. A lot of resale prices are also simply too high to be worth it.
Now imagine your grandparents. As you said, the exact model/chip doesn't matter, any phone is good enough. What they're buying is an appliance that will last at least the warranty period (2 years, EU), but likely much longer. Basically piece of mind at a fixed price. They won't get scammed (online) or ripped off (used in a physical store) if they buy directly from Apple.
I'm not talking about second hand. I'm talking about new from the carrier old model phones. Here is the verizon page for iphone 14s they have, you can get them for 0 down 0 a month through some deal from the cell phone plan. Apple can't compete with free.
https://www.verizon.com/smartphones/apple-iphone-14/
I only see plans with 65$/month for 36 months, so 2340$ over 3 years. Which is a lot of money.
They even tell you what the actual rate is in the fine print. It's just priced in: 17.49$ over 36 months comes out to 629$.
>Monthly payments shown are for customers who qualify to pay $0 Down, $17.49/mo. for36months; 0% APR. Retail Price: $629.99
A lot of people are eligible for carrier subsidized upgrades every few years as well. When I did this I could have gotten my SE2 for free from verizon from my plan. I chose to pay like $200 premium to get it with the highest storage sku.
It isn't just verizon either. Here is metropcs offering free iphone 13s for new customers:
https://www.metrobyt-mobile.com/cell-phone/apple-iphone-13
I’ve never seen something like that here in Italy. Here you pay for both the phone AND the plan :(
When the iphone 1 came out on AT&T it was initially sold like that and basically no one had it. Everyone still used their free full keyboard phone with unlimited texting (another american only cellphone market concept that prevented whatsapp from ever lifting off the ground here). Once they got it off that deal and had it with multiple carriers that could offer a carrier subsidized phone, then the dam broke and basically everyone had an iphone or an android phone overnight (same carrier subsidized deals available there, usually better).
Based on what is this a 3-year-old phone (excluding cpu)?
The budget iPhone is 900$ CAD. Let that sink in.
Breaking news: Apple makes premium products
[flagged]
As someone who uses Android as the main device, I have an iPhone SE as a backup phone when travelling. It is a nice phone by itself, and allows me to access Apple services in case I need to.
When the time comes, I'll probably look for a used iPhone 14/15 instead of a new iPhone 16e. To much money for my purpose.
You can easily pick up a used/refurb iPhone 15 for ~$500.
Just buy a used unlocked phone off eBay.
I've been sniping used Pixels off there for really good prices.
Yeah Apple overcharges. The SE is downright crude by modern standards, no ways was it worth $430.
This phone is at least modern, but it's not great value for money.
>no ways was it worth $430
It's worth what people are willing to pay and plenty of people valued it enough to put their hand in their pocket.
You do also get double the storage, double the RAM and a 24 megapixel camera upgrade.
Traditionally, the amount of RAM in your device is the limiting factor that controls how many years of updates you get.
So far, 8 years for the OG iPhone SE is the standing record for years of updates.
And the OG SE was significantly cheaper, even after adjusting for inflation. But it only received 6.5 years of regular iOS updates. It was released mid-cycle with iOS 9, and iOS 15 is the last supported version. You may be counting the later security updates, but that doesn’t help with app compatibility.
Thank you. This press release seems specifically designed to discourage this type of comparison.
> but it's also noticeably bigger.
I dunno, the old SE wasn’t a mini by any means - this is .3 inches taller and .2 inches wider, so yes bigger but not like a different size class altogether
The SE had a pretty huge bezel though. That's an annoying feature of it, but at the same time it means that the screen was actually much smaller than the 16e's screen, and therefore (depending on how you hold it) easier to use one handed, which is what most people who want a small phone are looking for.
This is a lot bigger. IIRC the mini is smaller than the old SE, and this is bigger than the mini. It's not a "plus" sized iPhone, but that would be skipping up two size classes. It has gone from small to regular.
To be absolutely clear, the mini is bigger than the first gen SE but smaller than the second and third gen SE.
Oh true. I guess we skipped those generations since there wasn't much difference compared to the regular iPhones that were out at the time.
Now compare it to 1st Gen SE.
Easily the nicest form factor phone they ever produced. You can reach the entire screen with the thumb in one hand without awkwardly flopping the phone onto the thumb in the farthest corner. It is smaller than your wallet. The battery lasted forever because the screen was small and not that bright or nearly so pixel dense.
Too bad the management consultants killed such a technology.
I kinda want the 1st-gen 4" SE screen on a bezel-less modern phone. That'd really fit nicely in a pocket. Would modern apps and modern websites be usable on it?... not really, but maybe I don't need them anyway.
I am using it perfectly fine.
There’s no conspiracy. Not enough people like small phones. Apple’s biggest spike happened once they ditched the iPhone 5 size and went to bigger phones with the iPhone 6.
I’m willing to bet it was some people in management that missed the small phones and fought to re-introduce a smaller form factor phone. They succeeded in making the best small phones ever made and rounding down approximately nobody bought them. Blame the general public for killing the form factor.
Apple sells how few Mac Pros a year and still sells them? They could ship another couple skus. One of the largest tech companies on the face of the earth and you are telling me they can't ship a cellphone.
Think of the QC modem as an API and that API is limited to what QC wants apple or anyone else using their modem to do. The firmware is pushed by QC and then apple can use it to update it’s modems of QC when it does it’s now updates.
Now with C1 that API is designed at apple and in a way that their soc team wants to get the best battery life along. So the modem can be turned off / on updated request data signals etc in a more efficient manner with the soc. On top of that apple probably cleaned up parts of the modem that they probably didn’t feel were needed for their iPhones that maybe QC were obligated to include because of the way their modems had to be designed and sold.
Now do this to Bluetooth and Wi-Fi and put everything in the soc and you are going to be getting solid gains sooner than later.
This transition is very exciting cause I’m hoping this happens to MacBooks as well.
Would love a 5G MacBook with a data plan.
> Would love a 5G MacBook with a data plan.
I thoroughly enjoyed the ATP podcast discussion on this.
Sounds like the base assumption is Apple is incapable of having decent tethering even as they control the whole ecosystem, including special protocols in-between their product they design 100% from hardware to software.
But somehow pushing the modem in the MacBook solves this...because Apple is then good at managing transient network connections in macos, hooking to complex mesh networks on protocols they don't control ?
To my eyes Apple being unable to realize these dreamlike expectations is probably the very reason MacBooks don't have modems.
>But somehow pushing the modem in the MacBook solves this...because Apple is then good at managing transient network connections in macos, hooking to complex mesh networks on protocols they don't control ?
A cell modem is mostly just another uplink, with all the hard stuff being done in the modem. The user doesn't need to do anything to use it. Tethering requires extra stuff to happen: the user has to initiate the connection, the iPhone has to reconfigure its networking, and I imagine there's a bunch of security layers that must be passed through before tethering is allowed. It's 2 entirely different scenarios.
You choose to simplify how to integrate the modem into the system while digging deeper into how tethering happens.
Why doesn't having another separate subsystem running it's own OS managing the cell connection also have network switching implications (something deciding the connection is now the primary one, just like it does for tethering), security issues (it's a know attack vector on phones as well), power management issues etc ?
The iPhone 3G for instance was a piece of crap network connection wise, it would drop calls, lose signal, memory leak at the border of the two systems etc. Networking with a cell subsystem isn't trivial.
Can you make a reasonable case for why the experience must necessarily be worse in macOS than it is in iOS and iPadOS?
IOS was built from the ground to handle cellular networking, and the whole stack is optimized for that, including sandboxing network connections and not allowing server type applications or anything that directly tries to mess with the networking layer in a way that is not explicitly authorized.
Coming from a mature OS built from a completely different paradigm is going to require a lot more effort. In particular macos has a whole legacy of programs doing almost whatever they want.
Apple _can_ just slap a cell networking subsystem in it and let it crash and burn whenever something unexpected happens or the user gets out of the defined boundaries of when it should work (like depleting system memory), but that doesn't sound like a great brand strategy to me and is not what people seem to be expecting. Microsoft will be on board with it, but I don't see Apple.
I think that qualifies as what I asked for, thanks. I appreciate the engagement, and am perhaps a bit less optimistic about the kinds of tradeoffs that might need to be made with cellular on macOS.
Do you have a link to that podcast about 5G MacBook?
This one: https://atp.fm/625
I must have been around the 1h20 time in the podcast
> Apple is incapable of having decent tethering even as they control the whole ecosystem
Are they, though? Tethering from my MacBook to my iPhone or iPad is a pretty seamless experience, to the point I don't even think about it. And sometimes I get home from a cafe and forget I'm even tethering until I notice my iPhone battery is lower than expected. And this isn't Apple, but I don't even notice I'm not on my home LAN because of tailscale.
It's definitely significantly easier than dealing with built in WWAN devices & ModemManager on my linux laptop. (Or Windows, when I used it on that same hardware.)
If your sentiment is the most common, including a modem in MacBooks makes only sense for the tiniest of tiniest of user slice, and with Apple barely cattering to pro users, I can't imagine them investing further to solve a problem that isn't as simple as just slapping an extra part in the machine (which they traditionally hate).
On my side it was 90% there, a bit lagging to connect and totally failing from time to time , once in a week perhaps, but workable otherwise. The argument on the podcast was for having a 100% great solution like it does on the iPad, assuming an internal modem on macos would rainbows and ponnies.
That's hard to believe. Even Quectel (random Chinese IoT modem manufacturer, which is also using Qualcomm modem SoCs) gets to have Qualcomm modem source code. I know, because they ship it modified with their own AT commands implemented and other changes. If random chinese company can ship modified Qualcomm modem firmware, Apple surely can, too. :D
Massive chunks (millions of lines) of Qualcomm modem firmware (the part running on Hexagon DSP cores) are even leaked on github for anyone to see.
Apple is bound to have uptodate and probably even completely source available Qualcomm firmware at its engineers' fingertips. And they have more leverage than random Chinese IoT manufacturer, to request ability to modify it as they see fit. And they'll certainly have at least the parts that are relevant for the control you're talking about.
The decision most likely comes down to politics (any help optimizing qualcomm modems directly benefits everyone using them, and that's a lot of android phones out there), and not these kinds of technical issues.
> ...Bluetooth and Wi-Fi and put everything in the SOC...
Maybe UWB, NFC, GPS too, right?
Noob question: these things have software defined radio something DSP something angry pixies. And the just add Rx/Tx stuff as needed. Right?
AM, FM, CB, whatever support would be cool.
Very cool to see a new entry into the modem market. Obviously not available for anyone other than Apple, but I’m interested to see how it shapes up over time much like their SoC has done.
This has been a long time coming since Apple bought Intels modem division several years ago.
I’m also interested to see if it enables cellular in laptops. Afaik the limiting factor has been that Qualcomm charge a percentage of device rate , which would be exorbitant for a laptop. Having it be in house might allow for it now.
The modem might be the most interesting thing about this phone. They've spent years trying to get one out the door.
I think camera is equally interesting.
Why? It uses a linear zoom like a classic lens design inside and embeds an optical 2x zoom lens into a smaller area.
From the press release:
> With an integrated 2x Telephoto, users have the equivalent of two cameras in one, and can zoom in with optical quality to get closer to the subject and easily frame their shot.
Isn't this the first time they have an actual zoom lens vs multiple lenses and thus CMOS?
Edit: reading below it's still unsure if they actually have a lens that moves back & forth to achieve the zoom.
This is the first time they use linear (classic zoom) design. The previous one was a 90-degree periscope design. From 16 Pro Max specifications:
> 12MP 5x Telephoto: 120 mm, ƒ/2.8 aperture and 20° field of view, 100% Focus Pixels, seven-element lens, 3D sensor-shift optical image stabilization and autofocus, tetraprism design. 5x optical zoom in, 2x optical zoom out; 10x optical zoom range
An image showing what they did earlier: https://i.4pda.ws/s/as6yz0d0FvbZniF2YYSyZ3z2HOWajz2.jpg
There's absolutely no reason for them to introduce a new mechanical camera system. They previously marketed their cropping of the center 12MP of their 48MP sensor as 2x optical zoom. They will use the same method here.
Strongest argument that they didn't is that adding something like that is absolutely a thing Apple would have talked about at length in the press release. They love getting to do extensive "here's something cool that 'only Apple could do'" segments. (And we love to make fun of them for it.)
It's probably the same as the 2x zoom in the iPhone 16 line. The 1x pictures are a 48MP sensor that does some pixel-combining to output a 12MP image. The 2x pictures are a crop of 12MP in the center of the sensor, that doesn't do any combining. So it's still "optical", but it's lower-quality than the 1x.
Optical zoom changes significantly how out-of-focus areas looks like. For anyone doing photography (with actual cameras and actual lenses), calling crop an "optical zoom" is a lie from Apple.
If you have an actual physical zoom lens, cropping a zoomed out photo produces a different result than zooming in with the lens in the first place. Even when your camera/sensor doesn't move. It's all physics yo
I think it's not "zooming with the sensor", but has a slim lens stack to enable optical 2x zoom. The whole system is also PDAF, so they need the movement anyway.
No, it’s literally a digital crop exactly like the other sensors that use 48MP sensors. There’s nothing magic here. I would be shocked if it’s anything different than the exact identical camera used in the base iPhone 15, quite frankly. The cheaper versions never use the latest hardware for the cameras.
It'd be nifty if they did that, but I'm skeptical they'd introduce something like that on their new budget model.
I'd say it's a nice platform to test on before bringing it to flagship models.
Same thing with the new modem.
They did the modem because it's actually cheaper for them. They already bought the Intel division and had engineers work on it for over 5 years, so it's already sunk costs at best. Since they came up with a working design, it is FOR SURE cheaper for them to use it than to buy something from Qualcomm.
I'm a bit suspicious about this, because if it was truly great, they would have waited longer to advertise it as a must have feature for their "pro" devices.
It's sort of beta testing the thing on the lower volume product with less tech literate people who won't complain too much because of some weird connectivity issues.
If it performs, Apple is going to make even more money on the next round of iPhone, not that Apple needs any more money but you know, if that could stop them from increasing the price, that could be nice.
I wouldn’t say it’s suspicious. I think it is a good plan to get telemetry from real world usage.
Since Apple owns the whole stack, they can iterate faster too.
If it were an optical zoom then it would be able to take 24MP and 48MP shots like it can in 1x mode, but it is limited to 12MP which highly suggests its just a crop.
It just crops to the central 12MP of the image sensor. It's the same camera from the iPhone 15
> I’m also interested to see if it enables cellular in laptops
Are WWAN cards not a thing already? I've never looked much into them at all, but they do seem to exist, at least (and seem to be around $20-$50 and plug into M.2 slots)
MacBooks do not have an M.2 slot, nor do they have WWAN.
Many laptops, including MacBooks, do not have M.2 expansion available.
And when laptops do have a spare M.2 slot it's usually intended for an SSD only and is not the right kind of M.2 slot for a cellular (or WiFi) card. And of course, you'd need antennas. So the whole laptop needs to be designed around accommodating cellular connectivity, with significant changes to the internal layout.
Yeah great point. Given the MacBook is metal, and expansion slot would need to also be placed with cellular in mind to work
Maybe now they can put a cellular modem in a MacBook Pro.
I hope it's not just the Pro, I really want it in a Macbook Air!
I agree that every device should have a cellular modem option. I am just annoyed that no matter how much I am willing to spend on Apple's top-end road warrior product, I cannot get an option available from Dell.
Why doesn’t iPhone tethering solve this problem already? Why pay for two modems? Genuinely curious.
FindMy relies on the device either connecting to the Internet or pinging a nearby device that does. This would mean Macs always visible in FindMy
I'm probably a small minority, but I would trade my phone in for a clamshell/dumbphone tomorrow if my Macbook had 5g. Separately, tethering seems to blow through my phone battery.
Convenience and also for corporate devices, so you don’t need a company phone to get data on the go
I think the long term plan is for the modem to be part of the SOC. That would probably lead to even better efficiency and cost/space savings. If that happens I fully expect the modem to end up in the M series as well.
Is this a replacement for the "SE" line? It seems similar to the previous SE models in that it's cheaper, uses an older body, and is released in an off month. The marketing copy in the OP also compares it to the older SE phones.
I am guessing that's the end of the small phone line at Apple.
> I am guessing that's the end of the small phone line at Apple.
That really ended with the 13 mini on which I'm typing this comment and that I'll hold onto till it's no longer supported.
I have been keeping my 12 Mini in as pristine condition as possible. I often keep the phone in my vest pocket and really hate the size of … well … anything larger than the Mini. Best form factor ever for me.
Same here. I'm hoping there will be a 19 mini
It wouldn't be crazy for them to offer a mini only every several generations. If the problem is that there isn't enough demand to justify design and tooling, it would make sense to let demand grow for 5-6 years, then release a new mini that all small phone lovers will buy.
Yup, Apple still makes a new iPad mini every 3-4 years, despite it being clearly worse on paper than the mainline iPad. But the last version was mostly a spec bump.
I recently figured the only way to pull that off would be to brand it as „iPhone 19 - Steve Jobs edition“. Apple, feel free to run with it.
That really ended with 1st Gen SE.
Yes, this replaces the SE which was not really that small. The SE screen was small but the case not so small. This 16e is less that 0.25 inches bigger in the diagonal.
It’s funny that the marketing for this is about introducing a new member of the family. But it doesn’t also mention that one other member has been disowned/excommunicated
It's like when your employer says "we're all one big family" and then fires people. Makes you wonder what their families are like...
"Is Uncle Dave coming this Thanksgiving?"
"No, he was adopted by a competing family. We're suing."
From a marketing perspective, it's probably ancient history. They've had three rounds of iPhone launches between now and the launch of the 13 mini, and the 13 mini was discontinued a year and a half ago. Even if the 16e had been a mini-sized phone (or available in this size and a mini size), it would have been weird for marketing to highlight that market segment and draw attention to that 1.5-year absence.
I think they are referring to today's discontinuation of the 3rd gen iPhone SE, since the 16e is so different from the previous SE phones.
Yeah, they took the SE off their website at the same time as they announced this.
I feel you're correct because this is the iPhone that appeals to me, and no new iPhone ever appeals to me.
Whoa, shipping their own baseband modem for the first time, skipping the Qualcomm tax. That's huge, even for Apple.
I'm sure Apple still pays patent licensing fees to Qualcomm even if Apple is now manufacturing their own modem.
In the past, Qualcomm was infamous for high licensing fees.
However, part of the process of creating an open industry standard like 4G/5G is getting a legally binding commitment from the patent holders to license standards essential patents to all takers on "reasonable" terms.
> If the patent holder refuses upon request to license a patent that has become essential to a standard, then the standard-setting organization must exclude that technology.
https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_non-discrimina...
So Qualcomm is still entitled to some money, but not nearly as much as they made back when there was no legal restriction on what they could demand.
And I noticed that Apple C1 skipped 3G network entirely. Only has 2G,4G and 5G support.
The iPhone 16e Tech Specs page lists 3G (UMTS/HSDPA) support. It's missing CDMA, but they already dropped that way back with the iPhone 14
https://www.apple.com/iphone-16e/specs/
5G NR (Bands n1, n2, n3, n5, n7, n8, n12, n14, n20, n25, n26, n28, n29, n30, n38, n40, n41, n48, n53, n66, n70, n71, n75, n76, n77, n78, n79)
FDD‑LTE (Bands 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18, 19, 20, 25, 26, 28, 29, 30, 32, 66, 71)
TD‑LTE (Bands 34, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 48, 53)
UMTS/HSPA+ (850, 900, 1700/2100, 1900, 2100 MHz)
GSM/EDGE (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz)
Yeah you are right. I checked the website again. The missing one is DC-HSDPA. I incorrectly think that is the entire 3G networks.
I imagine the 2G network they are talking about is GSM, which is a 2G open standard created in the EU and used internationally.
> It was first implemented in Finland in December 1991. By the mid-2010s, it became a global standard for mobile communications achieving over 90% market share, and operating in over 193 countries and territories.
https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM
I'm interested to see how these perform at the edge of reception, which still is a massive drain. Before I had an iPhone with satellite reception, turning on airplane mode when hiking was essential for battery life.
My current iPhone (and I had to check which one I have...) actually is much more sticky to satellite. It wont switch back to cellular immediately.
Thank you for knowing how to spell "whoa".
Until today I thought they were interchangeable spellings.
I'm curious, is "woah" incorrect? If so, why?
Even as the instinctive prescriptivist that I am, I can't possibly get get worked up about permutations on onomatopoeia.
Not even something like "woe" for woah, or "hmf" for hmph? :P
You raise good points. :)
Actually I like "hmf" despite my usual distaste for the dilution of "ph" to "f". The "ph" in "hmph" seems incidental, so it does not trigger me, I guess!
There is a highway sign somewhere on I-95 for "Fenix Ave", which took me a while to realize was a vicious act committed by illiterates against "Phoenix Avenue".
Whoa is just older. https://www.dictionary.com/e/whoa-or-woah/
Dictionaries are descriptive of actual use, not prescriptive rulings. Both spellings are completely valid, the pedantry is incorrect.
[flagged]
USB-C connector with support for: USB 2 (up to 480Mb/s)
Can someone explain why they are pushing USB 2 speeds via USB-C connector in 2025? Can't believe it's cost... It's a shame.
They design the chip that powers the phone. Apple designs their chips to include exactly the IO they need, and nothing more. The A18 chip does not have the IO to support USB-3 speeds on the port. No A18 device supports USB 3 speeds.
It's maddening but it is a question of cost; it's just pennies, and Apple is for sure not passing on the savings to us.
The 15 and 16 Pro lines support USB 3 speeds.
Neither of which uses A18.
But neither support Thunderbolt :v
To be fair, I’ve not used the cable for anything but charging for at least five years
Backup/restore is one common usecase. It's painfully slow with current speed. AFAIK only Pro model support USB3 speeds. Someone more knowledgable can maybe explain if there is any technical/cost reason behind it (I honestly don't see one ).
I believe most people do iCloud backup/restore nowadays. I only do manual backup/restore once every few years when I upgrade my iPhone (even then, I could probably do that via iCloud also)
The only issue is now you pay for icloud for life. Terrible service just try pulling a lot of photos off of it. Basically can't be done because no matter the tool you try you get connection timeout issues after a couple dozen photos. I have like 60k photos on a family members icloud account that we can't get at all. Stuck paying icloud now for that person. Frankly at this point I'd pay for physical media mailed if that were an option.
Yep. And the incentive at Apple is to keep making people use more cloud and have them pay more for it so they can say they make more profit from the service division.
It's quite bad, because it's a rug pull that Apple did. Before all the cloud/service nonsense, what differentiated Apple from the rest was your ability to fully own and manage their devices easily without having to rely on some "forever" subscription.
If people wanted some cloud crap, they could have gone with Google or even Microsoft. But current Apple doesn't care, it cares more about money than a fundamental philosophy that sets them apart.
> what differentiated Apple from the rest was your ability to fully own and manage their devices easily without having to rely on some "forever" subscription.
I'm not sure that's ever been true of the iPhone. Apple's app store is the only way to install software, you're tied to their cloud from day 1. Its not a paid subscription that you're locked into, but they make sure everyone pays in some way.
You used to be able to do syncing with iTunes via WiFi. Can you do that for backups? WiFi is bound to be faster than USB 2.
>Can't believe it's cost
why wouldn't it be cost? even if it's only a few cents per unit, they're still going to sell millions of these, it all adds up and the best place to cut costs is in the places where most people don't actually care.
The point here is to replace iPhone 15 which doesn't support Apple Intelligence without raising the lowest price point for an iPhone. Apple has made a bit of a blunder by selling hardware with such limited memory for so long, which gives them a large install base that doesn't support gen-ai tech. Of course, the urgency of upgrading depends on how bullish you are on gen-ai.
I'm not sure if running any local model on smartphones make sense right now for most of the people. I played with many tiny llm models on ollama and only 14b models can feel to be usable - otherwise why not just run any app that do inference in cloud and run SOTA models? Even o4-mini feels more usable than those tiny models on smartphones - apple would have to ship iphones with 24GB RAM but inference would still be slower than those in the cloud. Paying $200 yearly subscription for chatgpt/claude/perplexity/gemini still seems cheaper than buying new iPhone just for that.
I wish though they would ship some beefy apple tv/mac mini/router with 32GB RAM that can work not only as private llm but also private iCloud, vpn, router, pihole, etc
> I'm not sure if running any local model on smartphones make sense right now for most of the people
It probably makes sense for simpler tasks like summarizing text messages/email that you might not necessarily want to send off to a third party that has a "move fast and break things" approach to data privacy
This device looks like a technology testing mule for apple, and with that price point it's guaranteed to sell boatloads.
I think being able to cram this amount of new tech (a new camera, a new modem) for a new device is good for apple. I believe this will play out well, and this tech will graduate the so-called flagships in a couple of years.
It seems that this will cannibalize iPhone 16 sales - it's $200 cheaper, same form factor and internals, with the only difference being the camera, which if you care about you go for the Pro model. However, the price makes for a much more appealing upgrade for anyone who has an older iPhone
>, with the only difference being the camera, which if you care about you go for the Pro model.
Some people may care a little extra for an ultrawide lens and spending more for the cheaper iPhone 16 with 2 lenses of regular + ultrawide is enough for that. Don't have to get the more expensive Pro model.
The Pro model adds a 3rd lens for optical "true" telephoto instead of digitized "fake" telephoto and increases the resolution on the ultrawide.
It's also not clear from from the Apple press release if the 16e has a macro mode. The regular iPhone 16 (not Pro) has macro.
Everyone I've talked to would prefer the telephoto over the ultrawide for the non-pro models.
But then why would you buy the pro?
According to the Compare site[0] it does not have macro mode.
16 Pro: 48MP macro photography
16: Macro photography
16e: —
[0]: https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/
Which is why this came out in February, after most of the sales of the iPhone 16 are done.
Which is also why we will probably see the discontinuation of the regular iPhone 16 this Fall when the iPhone 17 is introduced, with this 16e staying on at the same price for an extra year.
While I'm not an expert, betting on the older model staying at the same price point until after the next model is released is a fairly safe bet, if you don't get an ever bigger discount once the next version comes out in the fall. Unless their own modem fails horribly, it seems they will continue with the new modem on the 17, driving the 16e price down.
I do not expect the 16e to reduce in price for at last 18 months. Apple has been tightening the screws on its prices. Also, the c1 modem is not coming to every single device Apple makes this year. Qualcomm announced that there is a deal for new iPhone launches until 2026. We're not done yet with Qualcomm and Apple.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-11/apple-aap...
There are a number of other differences besides the camera, a significant one being the lack of MagSafe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43104109
You can easily just add a case with magnets in it. Even iPhone 16 Pro cases often embed magnets in them to compliment the built in ones.
I'm guessing you might miss the cool animations but for charging and mounting it will work the same.
If the only things left to compete on are the camera and frame construction, maybe it's time for the non-pro line to go away.
There should never have been a "Pro" line in the first place. It's all about creating desire through marketing to make people spend more on the ladder.
The iPhone 4 had stainless steel frame, yet they made a big deal of it with the X and subsequent "Pro" generation when it was a standard "feature" that set them appart for success in the first place. It's crazy how much bullshit Apple have been selling since their financiarisation.
>It's crazy how much bullshit Apple have been selling since their financiarisation.
Have you seen what cars people buy?
Welcome to the modern world.
Apple has no problem with self cannibalization. See the iPod or the iPad with keyboard for example.
Counterpoint: removing Hypervisor API from iOS 16, ostensibly to prevent iPads from cannibalizing MacBooks.
That was because they found a security bug in that code and decided to ifdef it out if it wasn’t being used.
UTM and others use that code to this day. They could fix the bug and re-enable.
Yes but of course they don’t actually consider this to be something they want to support
Eventually they did allow UTM SE into the App Store in July 2024, https://daringfireball.net/linked/2024/07/15/app-store-utm-s....
I meant apps using the Hypervisor APIs on iPadOS
Or MacBooks not having touch screens, or iPads being unable to run macOS / macOS apps even if you buy the $350 keyboard that gives it the same exact inputs as a MacBook, or iPads with modems being unable to place calls.
There's all sorts of limitations that seem less like thoughtful design and more like holding back the devices just that bit to make you want another device. You can't just want an iPad Pro, how will you run desktop apps? You can't just want an iPad Mini, how will you call people?
Well, at least the iPads can function as calculators now.
It's funny how iPads are marketed as laptop replacements, but everyone with an iPad has a laptop too. Especially the Apple fans who tell you it's a laptop replacement.
Now that Mac Mini is smaller, it's almost viable as iPad sidecar to run MacOS and Linux VMs. The ultimate dongle, with "I should be a hypervisor" graffiti.
Pixel Tablet with GrapheneOS has less limitations and will soon have Linux VMs, but lacks a keyboard travel case, and has been discontinued.
Can also emulate a PC in WASM to run Linux with a huge performance hit.
But I'm not even talking about Linux stuff, just basic use cases. Like a website somehow doesn't work with the iPad/iPhone, even if you forcibly request the desktop version. (YouTube creator studio live streaming is one example, or random airliners' in-flight video sites.) You need to unzip, manipulate, re-zip, and email something. Putting stuff on a USB stick for a print shop. Doing taxes. Running some Mac/Windows-only software.
> Now that Mac Mini is smaller, it's almost viable as iPad sidecar
How I wish Apple would work to make this better than the current state. Currently it's very ugly (bad scaling, weird res, weird bars around screen), high latency, needs some configuration...
Just let me plug in a cable and it should immediately become a display. (with video over DP?)
I legitimately don't remember if iPads have USB-C or Lightning or both at this point, but theoretically either should've worked for wired video
Cheap HDMI to USB-c adapter was relatively painless with Orion app for video display on iPad Air/Pro.
The cheap ones have high latency and only 1080p, no?
>Or MacBooks not having touch screens
I hope they never do that, it was a disaster on Windows 8.
This is aimed at the lower end of the market: the pre/postpaid MVNOs and deal hunters. And for kids.
The new modem is interesting. How much power around the world is being wasted because Qualcomm's code sucks? Apparently gigawatts per day.
My cell phone has a 3.7v, 2018 mAh battery, for a total of 7.4 watt-hours.
That's enough power to drive a Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus a distance of... 55 meters.
Even if Qualcomm's code was solely responsible for completely draining my phone's battery every single day, it would still not be very much power.
Multiply that by 100 million phones and you'll understand what I'm saying.
Now multiply that by 6 billion, because that apparently is the number of smartphones sold over the last few years.
You'd give an AUD$1000 phone to a kid?
Deciding between the vanilla iPhone 16 and the 16e here.
I don't see much in favor of the vanilla iPhone 16. Is the extra camera lens useful for anything beyond portrait mode?
You can record videos for later playback on the AVP, in case you care. There's also UWB and magsafe on the vanilla 16. And the dynamic island and the camera control button. But it's mostly little things, which many people probably don't care about.
No, no one cares about AVP.
Currently, this is roughly true. But there's a decent chance it will have a killer app within the next ~5 years, and then adoption will grow quickly. At that point, it would be nice to have a small library of videos/photos that were taken with the AVP in mind.
Regardless of the AVP's success, there will probably be some AR/VR device that becomes popular, and can read this format in the future.
VR is not usable if it's not ultralight on account of the physical pain the weight of the headset causes. Of course the AVP is the worst for this as it's made of metal and glass.
I had to google that to even decipher what it is, and we have way too many Apple devices in our house :)
It took me a moment to figure it out too.
Try it in the store. If it's anything like my 12 mini, the wide angle lens creates too much distortion to use for portraits. Occasionally I use it for landscape photos, but I wouldn't miss it much.
it's probably better to get iPhone 15 Pro even if second hand but good condition. On swappa you can get it for $550 and iPhone 15 Pro still support apple intelligence.
I bought a 16 Pro after the camera on my previous iPhone stopped working. Despite being a camera-led purchase - and I do care about the camera on my phone - I would have bought this 16e in a heartbeat over the Pro.
Apple C1 modem versus a tried and true Qualcomm modem seems like a big internal difference.
Indeed, this is the most notable aspect about this launch from a technology perspective. Apple's been working toward eliminating their Qualcomm dependency for nearly as long as the iPhone has existed.
People love biggest phone for some reason regardless of features.
I like the bigger phones because of my poor vision and fat fingers. Easier to read, easier to type on.
Large phones are great for spectacle free use. You can hold the two feet away from you and still see everything while being able to actually focus.
Hell, i want a smaller phone lol. I love the high end phones, i like my iPhone 16 Pro.. but man, this smaller one is tempting.
I don't think i'd give up the camera for it though.. but a boy can dream.
> iPhone 16e will be available in white and black in 128GB, 256GB, and 512GB storage capacities, starting at $599 (U.S.) or $24.95 (U.S.) per month for 24 months.
Wait a sec. 24 * 24.95 = $598.80
They'll pay you twenty cents to take the financing?
What can you pay with if you're doing financing? If they don't accept credit cards, they make way more than twenty cents back with reduced fees. If you finance on an Apple Card you don't get the 3% cash back (last time I looked).
Unless interest rates drop to 0% they're obviously still losing money, but if you follow the logic of everywhere that allows BNPL[0] you make it up by having more purchases than you would otherwise.
[0]: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/buy-now-pay-later/
read the fine print
> The last month’s payment for each product will be the product’s purchase price, less all other payments at the monthly payment amount
Aha, 59900 % 24 = 20.
Still interesting this is one of few products offering zero interest financing.
Yeah, I've used that for the last few models. I'd just as soon use their money over mine.
More subscribers/concurrent revenue on their balance sheet to show off, perhaps?
Just more purchases period. If I don't have $500 but I wouldn't think twice about a $25/mo bill I'd be forced to buy an Android if financing wasn't an option.
Pro: action button
Con(?): 60 Hz
And the price hike again shows that Apple is the master of the "for just a few hundred dollars more, you can get...“ upsell to bigger iPhones.
60hz is really taking the piss at this point, if they must reserve 120hz for the Pro line then the least they could do is use 90hz further down the stack.
Apple is the king us using old kit and marketing it as innovative. On the flip side, 26 hours of video playback on battery is crazy long, and 60Hz is a big contributor to that.
The obvious problem with that is that 90hz is just as good as 120hz for 95% of people. (60hz is as good as 90hz for probably 70%)
I had an iPhone 13 Pro before downgrading to the 13 Mini. One of the reasons I bought the Pro was for the higher refresh screen, and while it's obviously noticeable when using it, it's not something I've ever missed even once.
I have the opposite issue - dragging my finger across a 60hz screen is immediately noticeable. I’m jealous of you.
I don't think he says it's not noticeable but that it doesn't matter. I'm in the same boat; I can notice it but it doesn't make much difference for my phone use case so it's largely irrelevant. It really depends on what you are doing with your phone.
In my point of view, the bummer is non LTPO display, preventing going down to 1hz which can save some battery if you use your phone for reading.
According to several supply-chain rumors, the iPhone 17 models will all have 120 Hz.
60hz refresh is totally fine, there's no reason to be salty about it.
Yeah, at this market tier 60Hz is a perfectly usable target.
I have a Pro that I've set to only use 60 FPS (Accessibility / Motion / Limit Frame Rate). 120 FPS is ever so slightly smoother, but I would rather have the slightly better battery life disabling it.
Among mainstream users, people just don't care and this isn't remotely the differentiator people seem to hold it as. Similar to the micro bezel fetish, these are spec-chaser points that certain manufacturers convince people are must haves. But they really aren't.
> Among mainstream users, people just don't care and this isn't remotely the differentiator people seem to hold it as.
I agree that most users don't consciously care, but I think its definitely possible that it influences how fast the phone feels and could influence purchases if you are testing them side-by-side in a store. There is some anecdotal evidence to that in the fact that Google does the extremely scummy thing of locking their non-pro Pixels to 60Hz when in demo mode regardless of the refresh rate setting chosen in the OS.
Do people really need a 60hz display? Most people are just messaging and scrolling tiktok with their phone.
60hz makes this obsolete on arrival IMO
The death of Touch ID. Also huge.
Nothing like grabbing your phone by the button in your pocket and having it unlocked and open before you even lay eyes on it. As fast as they advertise faceid being it will never beat the fact you can engage touchid as soon as you lay a finger on the phone.
> Nothing like grabbing your phone by the button in your pocket and having it unlocked and open before you even lay eyes on it.
It's the perfect way to accidentally all of the things.
Accidentally open an app. Now you have to wait for it to load, and waste your network data and battery, before you can do what you really wanted to do.
Accidentally read that message, and also accidentally swipe it away while you fumble with your phone. You didn't want to see that message anyway.
Accidentally add that person to your contact groups. Yup, you added your boss to the conversation with your wife. Nobody will mind!
Accidentally read an email, and clicked on that phishing link. Cool beans, security relies on 2FA anyway, right? It's not like it could open an app and automagically read the SMS code, right?
Accidentally start playing video. Yes that video. In the conference room. It's nice that everyone has a great sense of humor!
Somehow that never happened to me
even better when you are app developer or your phone is just laying down on table - it was nice when you didn't have to pick it up to unlock it and put it down.
Yup, sad news.
Anyone who disagrees should try teaching an older relative with less than youthful fine motor control how to use a FaceID equipped iPhone.
I've had the opposite problem: both of my parents' (in their 80s) fingerprints have faded to the point that Touch ID no longer works reliably.
That is really interesting to me. I admittedly haven't played with it in a while but on previous Android phones I've had basically any patch of skin would register and work okay with the sensor. I know because I used to rock climb a lot which tears up fingerprints so I would register things like the backside of my index finger so I could unlock the phone while it sits on a table. It was definitely finickier than a proper fingerprint but preferable to retraining it every couple of days.
Specifically the swipe-up gestures you now need for the unlock / home navigations?
(I initially thought you might mean faceid doesn't work if you're a bit shaky, but I just tried that and it surprisingly doesn't care.)
FWIW: Face ID is optional, and the iOS passcode buttons are very accessible.
> Face ID is optional
Meanwhile, the Settings app keeps begging me to "Finish Setting Up Your iPhone".
I occasionally use my iPhone 8 Plus and don't immediately remember why it feels so nice to use. Then I remember it's the touch ID button
Touch ID is on the power button of iPad Air. Hopefully it will return on iPhone Air.
Very unlikely. Also, the Touch ID in the iPad Air (and iPad mini) doesn’t work quite as well as the round Touch ID sensors on the Home buttons, due to the narrower shape and the placement. As a power button it’s also a bit clunky.
> [rectangle] Touch ID doesn't work quite as well as the round Touch ID
Still more deterministic than Face ID.
There was also a rumor of in-display Touch ID.
I’d think that would be tricky to integrate with a decent case.
Agreed. FaceID is fundamentally less secure than TouchID. This is just gross.
No touch to unlock is one of the main things keeping me on Android
6.1”
I used to think 4.7” was a bit too much. Holding onto SE 2016 till death do us part.
I had an iPhone 5 until AT&T completely stopped supporting it. Would buy an SE, but I'm too skeptical of used phones.
$599 for 128GB with this caveat..
>Available space is less and varies due to many factors. A standard configuration uses approximately 12GB to 24GB of space, including iOS 18 with its latest features and Apple Intelligence on-device models can be deleted if Apple Intelligence is turned off and use approximately 7GB of space. Turning on Apple Intelligence will download the models again. Apple apps that can be deleted use about 4.5GB of space, and you can download them back from the App Store. Storage capacity subject to change based on software version, settings, and iPhone model.
That's just saying "The hard drive is 128GB, but your user directory only gets what the system doesn't need". Not at all surprising?
> and the new Apple C1, the first cellular modem designed by Apple
This is the biggest announcement IMHO, it's been a long time coming for them to ship something after buying the patents from Intel. It makes sense to ship the first new radio in "not your flagship" and a good way to test it out.
I wonder if the iPhone 17 will have it or if they will wait another year to see how it does. I would imagine the 17 is pretty much locked down as of now so it's not like this phone is meant to test in the wild then use the tech in 17 since there isn't enough turnaround time.
The e stands for electronic, marking a departure from traditional mechanical iPhones
Just like the eMac, where we finally moved beyond the primitive mechanical relays used in the iMac G3.
You’re also forgetting the original leather bound MacBooks and the somewhat contentious introduction of reverse scroll, with calligraphy on both sides!
Contentious then, but I preferred those to the modern "natural scroll" where the papyrus falls apart.
Ah, of course. I misspoke on that name. I may be showing my age here but the gen 1 papyrus displays were horrid. The scribes constantly complained about it muddying their quills.
Yeah, traditional iPhones that run on gasoline.
Apparently the camera is "2 in 1" that does 2x zoom with "optical quality" but they never actually say it's true optical zoom. I'm guessing that it's just digital zoom with some fancy processing. Does anyone know for sure?
It's a 12mp crop of a 48mp sensor, so it's not digital zoom but it is a crop. It's just that that crop is still of good resolution.
> It's a 12mp crop of a 48mp sensor, so it's not digital zoom but it is a crop.
I'm curious what you think digital zoom is if not cropping.
To be fair to the above poster, normally "digital zoom" implies that your standard (un-zoomed) image is at the native sensor resolution, and the zoomed image has reduced resolution because of the crop.
Presumably the standard image on the 16e converts the 48 MP sensor into a 12 MP image with less noise because they bin 4 sensor pixels into 1 pixel in the image file. So a 12 MP crop on the 48 MP sensor would result in a zoomed image with the same 12 MP resolution as the standard image. A major drawback would be higher image noise, but nobody will see a reduction in image pixels. At the end of the day it's probably somewhere between true optical zoom and a 12 MP native sensor with a crop.
The distinction between optical and digital zoom get a little blurred by this kind of camera setup. No pun intended.
Nice pun though. It's because when the camera is set to record 24 or 12mp photos at default zoom, then you can crop the 48mp sensor and still get the same resolution.
Typically cropping and then upscaling.
While I don't think it's right to call these crops "optical zoom", the quality is typically pretty good.
It's probably the same as the 2x zoom in the iPhone 16 line. The 1x pictures are a 48MP sensor that does some pixel-combining to output a 12MP image. The 2x pictures are a crop of 12MP in the center of the sensor, that doesn't do any combining. So it's still "optical", but it's lower-quality.
They cropped it out from the center of the 48MP photo. It’s the same on 16 and 16 Pro.
Have to wonder if the price would have been $499 if the tariffs/constant thread of tariffs over the next 4+ years wasn't there.
So glad it doesn't use the dynamic island which is so distracting as it becomes the foreground and makes the content into background.
Now they don't have any phones with the old-style rounded bezel. The SE was the very last of them. I have a 12 mini and thing I really hate about it is the sharp, orthogonal bezel. It's very uncomfortable to hold for longer periods of time.
I'm taking this as a sign from Apple that I use my phone too much and should probably stop.
> It's very uncomfortable to hold for longer periods of time
Somehow I see using phone less as a benefit.
The newer phones have rounded out the bezels a bit.
Still happy with my iPhone 7. Replaced display and battery, at an Apple Store, last year. Gaming, AI and photography are curiosities I look at from afar. For the rest it drives me around on vacation via CarPlay and Apple Maps. Handles my home banking, pre paid card and Apple Pay without a hitch. Chatting and calling on too many apps. Manages my digital IDs, medical records, emails, notes and calendar. Translates my conversations and runs Automations. It will soon help me charge an electric car. What more can I expect from it.
Same but 7+, it’s great. Battery got replaced every 42 months at 80%, and the only inconvenience for me with it is it doesn’t support iOS16/17+ apps and features like Grok, Tesla’s auto trunk open, and Garmin’s fitness app. I’m curious what shortcut/automations do you use? And I’m wondering in general how X’s Grok feature is any different functionally from their standalone iOS17+ app.
What I really want Apple to release is a foldable like Google Pixel and Samsung Galaxy’s flagship models.
The idea of having a normal screen on the front but then a second foldable screen inside is a great tradeoff between form and function.
Unfortunately I can’t see Apple releasing this because it harms their tablet sales. Hopefully I’m proven wrong though.
Have you used one? Is it really better?
Putting aside the biggest issue which is a creased and more fragile screen, I’m not really convinced it’s a better experience. Having more real estate for movies seems useful, but it’s otherwise difficult to type/hold/tap on such a large screen without a full commitment to tablet usage (which often includes a stand). I’m also not really sure how often I’d use the larger format.
The flagship foldables have two screens. A screen on the front that’s a full sized screen just like any other smart phone screen of the last 10 years.
But you can then fold the phone open to get access to that wider screen.
So you get the best of both worlds, a normal phone handset for one handed action. But a larger screen for when you want something that’s a little more “tablet” like.
The best of both worlds for me would be a device around the size of the "iphone mini", but with a thicker body, no camera bump, and the extra volume is all battery.
Just to add, I too was originally put off by the crease in foldable displays. But if it’s a second screen then I can actually live with that crease since it’s not something that’s going to affect casual use. It’s just there for when a normal phone screen isn’t enough. So it’s almost like having a bonus screen rather than a crease in your main screen.
Apple is rumored to be working on foldable phone and tablet, https://www.macrumors.com/guide/foldable-ipad/
Historically Apple hasn't really had a problem with cannibalizing their own sales - the $329 iPad, Apple Watch SE and this phone right here probably cannibalize sales of the more expensive SKUs, but they exist regardless.
I suspect the real reason they haven't released a foldable yet is that foldables still need to have a soft plastic screen and a crease/bump in the middle, and Apple's design neuroticism would never permit them to ship such a thing.
Agreed. Apple wouldn’t tolerate anything but the faintest of lines down exactly the middle of the screen.
Yeah. Very true on all counts.
I really don’t want to leave Apples ecosystem but when my phone is due for renewal later this year, I’d seriously consider switching to Android if it meant getting a foldable screen.
8Gb of ram, for those wondering.
Wow, for the 16e right? I missed that in the launch presentation. I’m hoping the 17 has 12+ GB RAM. Then I’ll upgrade from the 7+’s 3GB model
Action button looks to me they finally realized how good the blackberry action button was. Only took 20 years. Can we have the optical pointer back as well so we don't have to jab all over the glass which is slow and imprecise?
> the first cellular modem designed by Apple
Whoah! Maybe Apple can now figure out how to put a cellular modem in a MacBook Pro.
But couldn’t this previously have happened with a Qualcomm modem as well?
You can always easily tether to your iPhone. It’s hard to imagine people who own a Mac but don’t have a phone — I assume Android can also provide tethering? Aside from the BOM price increase and physical real estate, do want to pay $10/mo or whatever for an additional line?
I own a MacBook Pro and an iPhone (and other Apple devices which have cellular modems in them: an iPad and an Apple Watch). The tethering is flaky and burns two batteries at once while adding latency. I want an always on Internet connection like I can get with a Dell laptop.
The Qualcomm royalty agreement has been the problem, as they reportedly get a fraction of total device cost.
How my cellular provider bills me for it is irrelevant.
It could have, but my understanding is that Qualcomm's contracting is pretty brutal. They had no choice but to accept those terms with the iPhone. With the Mac, so long as they were selling without the modem, why bother?
People have been saying for years that this has always been part of the plan.
That the only reason Apple never included a cellular modem in MacBooks is because it would raise their prices because they'd have to pay Qualcomm.
Now that they won't, it seems inevitable.
can I get it without the AI slop?
You can turn it off, still. (For now?)
Funny, I'm actually considering buying this specifically because it comes with Apple Intelligence, and I'm someone who usually avoids AI slop. I guess I just like Apple's particular flavor of AI slop since I use it with the mail and iMessage apps on my Mac all the time.
Just move to the EU.
[flagged]
Probably because those of us who enjoy a lively discourse are tired of people trying to score some cheap karma with a thoughtless deployment of "slop" or "enshittification".
Understood. Here’s a more refined and articulate version:
"Can you provide this without the characteristic vagueness and padding of AI-generated text? I’d prefer something more precise, substantive, and thoughtfully constructed."
This keeps the directness while adding depth and clarity. Let me know if you'd like it even sharper.
Thanks Sam!
Entry level 16e - one lens. Mid-tier 16 - two lenses. Top-tier 16 Pro - three lenses.
The segmentation is very visible.
I have a (regular) Pixel 8 and given that this is smaller and finally has USB-C I'm very tempted to try to jump to Apple again but I'm curious about the following:
1. Is there a terminal equivalent like termux?
2. Is there an open source wireguard client like the official wireguard client for Android?
3. Is it possible to upload mp4 videos to it to watch offline?
4. Is it possible to upload some of my mp3 collection to it to play offline?
5. I believe syncthing isn't officially supported. Are there any alternative syncthing implementations or workarounds?
As someone who recently switched from a Pixel 5 to an iPhone 15 Pro (bought purely for the camera as I'm travelling around Japan at the moment), I hate it. I'm going straight back to Android when I get back to the UK.
I plugged it into my MBP expecting to be able to copy media over, but you can only copy it into the sandboxed filesystem of one app. So choose wisely.
Downloading media using Plex etc sucks. As soon as the phone locks or you move to another app, it stops. On Pixel, I could queue up a load of downloads or SMB transfers, lock my phone on the side and expect them to be complete when I come back.
As for a terminal or using it like a computer, fuhgeddaboutit.
If anything I've said is wrong, please correct me. I want to like this phone, the camera is out of this world.
1. I mean, there's iSH to emulate an x86 linux environment, but it's not like you can get access to the iOS system through a terminal. Since I mainly use the terminal on my phone for SSH, I use Termius.
2. There's the official wireguard client
3. iOS has native mp4 support. You can play mp4s from files stored on the phone, or from gdrive or dropbox, etc. or just import to your photos/videos library.
4. Yes.
5. yes, the Möbius Sync app
1. Not really. There are some good SSH clients that I'd recommend instead.
2. I use the official Wireguard client.
3. Yep.
4. Yep.
5. People grouse about it, but iCloud works brilliantly if you use it with other Apple gear. There are also the usual suspects like Box, Dropbox, GDrive, etc.
for 3 and 4 the native apps support those formats but you may be happier with VLC which is available for iOS as well.
Perhaps I'll finally update my 13 mini. I've been holding out hope that Apple will release another small form factor phone, but this may be the closest they will get.
I went from 13 mini to 16. I considered replacing the battery in the mini but a brand new 16 was so cheap with all the Verizon discounts and trade-in that it wasn’t worth putting a new battery in an old phone.
The 16 at first felt freakishly huge after years of the 13 mini, but I’ve gotten used to it.
I was in a similar spot, but then I got a free battery replacement through Applecare [1], so I've stuck with it.
[1] "Your product is eligible for a battery replacement at no additional cost if you have AppleCare+ and your product's battery holds less than 80% of its original capacity." https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/battery-replacement
Incredibly disappointing it’s so big. Bring back the small phones!!
You’ll have to pry the 13 mini from my cold dead hands…or just stop supporting it
I agree.
My iPhone 12 Mini has seen better days, and I will need a new phone soon. It is disappointing that there is no alternative to the iPhone 12/13 Mini in 2025.
The smaller form factor is more comfortable in my hand, and fits better in my pockets. With the slim bezels, I have never felt that the screen was too small.
It is funny to think that the screen size on the iPhone 12 Mini is very similar to the screen size on the older plus models.
sigh
You should get 5 years of updates out of it I suspect. It was originally released in September of 2021. So, 2026 might be the final year of iOS updates you'll get, then it's just a matter of how long they back port any security fixes. Sometimes devices end up getting longer support so it's tough to say for sure.
At this point one of these SE type devices is on my list for any future upgrades. I've gone to carrying a pocketable camera with me pretty much anywhere so having a good camera on my phone is no longer necessary, which means no more Pro model for me.
Highly doubt that. The latest version of iOS (18) is still compatible with the XS from in 2018 - that's almost 7 years ago now
For sure, I think 5 is the minimum I’ve seen lately. It’s pretty dang good from a longevity perspective.
Are you concerned about the screen size, then yes this is bigger.
If your concern is pocketability this new phone is only 0.25 inches larger in the diagonal.
I took myself off the every new iphone train at the 12 pro when it came out. My screen is pretty beat down at this point and the battery is 75% of a day. I keep thinking to get new one but a) my 12 pro is actually still very capable and I like the form factor a lot b) figuring out what iphone to get (including looking at acceptable older model) is totally overwhelming c) I really hate ewaste. If anyone has been in a similar situation and done the research I'm all ears. Thanks!
Why wouldn’t you replace the battery? I replaced the battery on my 12 after 2 years for £70 and got a phone that felt like after the replacement. And now, nearly 2 years later, I have no complaints. Maximum capacity 91%.
Video: https://youtube.com/watch?v=mFuyX1XgJFg
Is bluetooth reliable yet or is this model going to be plagued with the same persistent issues since the iPhone 14?
> Is bluetooth reliable
Will it ever be?
Not like a cable, but it's gotten really bad. I had constant drops on my iPhone 14 Pro. Eventually they shipped me a new one that had the same issue, but the recent software update fixed it almost 100%, like 1 drop/month instead of 10 daily.
Then I bought an iPhone 16 Pro and it was even worse than my iPhone 14 Pro... so I returned it even though I wanted a new phone.
It's gotta be affecting their bottom line.
Can someone please explain the benefits of C1 chip?
Vertical integration. No longer depends on Qualcomm for a very critical component. Slightly higher margin.
For us: it is smaller and consumes less power, so the phone can have a bigger battery life.
For them: more control, lower marginal costs.
Apple no longer has to pay a royalty that’s a percentage of the whole phone. Integrating the modem into the SoC saves power and space.
funny how that made the phone more expensive
I've never had even the slightest bit of interest in owning an iPhone, but if this is the testing ground for their new modem, I'm excited to see it come to the mac in the next few years.
They made their own modem, the right move but still brave, I bet there are a lot of 'Chestertons Fences' in those.
I had hopes for this to have an LCD screen, but alas. I will order a few iPhone SE today if it's still possible to find them.
For only $100 more, you can get an iPhone 15 without Apple Intelligence.
Apple has become a behemoth in chip design. I'm guessing Qualcomm won't be taxing them anymore since they're making their own modems
Qualcomm still owns the patents.
Anybody able to point me to a table that compares this with the other recent iPhone in terms of main hardware, screen, camera etc. ?
https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/?modelList=iphone-16e,i...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_iPhone_models
Thank you
Is the iPhone "e" series going to be a yearly release now? Like the Pixel "a" series?
I sadly will pass. I know there was no Mini size coming..but still, one can hope. Anyway, I see absolutely ZERO reasons to switch from my iPhone 14 other than to help them beta test their new modem in the field. They already have been doing that with software releases (iOS specially) since iOS 12/13.
A Mini would not have been a diminished experience/purchase even with lesser features. This is a diminished experience even for what it would cost.
With disappearance of iPhone SE in United States you can no longer buy iPhone with physical SIM slot. But cross the border into Canada and you can buy exact same phone with the physical slot.
This is a sad day and not progress in any meaningful way (social engineering away physical SIM, causing loss of flexibility when traveling).
Too bad they killed the SE. Guess I'm on my last (and first) iPhone
I thought it was going to be an actual modem... like they had previously.
Still rocking my iPhone XR with zero plans to change or upgrade phones. If I did or were forced to upgrade I would most likely go for something like this or an older 12 or 14 with a few features as possible.
At least I can still buy a 700 eur phone when my 13 mini gives up.
Kinda disappointing on all three fronts I was hoping there could be some improvement: size, weight, price.
With medical conditions affecting my muscle strength, I wish phones would get a bit lighter. Glass sandwich form factor is unnecessarily heavy and fatigues my arms.
167g. Lighter than the 16, but still far too heavy.
Hopefully one they do a Pro Mini, fingers crossed.
What that even be? You can’t fit what’s in the pro line in a smaller phone. The smaller phones already had smaller batteries, would you be willing to give up more to squeeze in another lens? Something or some things have to give when you have less space to work with.
Apple made the best small phones anyone had ever made and people didn’t like them. Bigger phones allow for a lot more than just bigger screens. People seem to take all the non screen stuff for granted.
Why can't they release another mini version? I don't want a large phone!
It sold poorly, sadly.
Of course, since they gimped it. What about creating a smaller version laden with features...
Nothing gimped about the 13 mini
A lot of the people that wanted a small iPhone jumped at the 12, so the 13 fixing the problems was a bit of a "too little, too late" situation.
You can’t make those people happy, I guess
Well, I bought a 12 mini the day it came out. I'm about due for an upgrade, and I would go with the 17 mini when it comes out, if they still made minis.
All of my friends that have minis are also people that don't upgrade frequently.
I like my 13 mini, but now I will be happy to trade some size for a bigger battery. Also, some websites turned out to be unusable on a smaller screen, so today I am thrilled for the 16e
You can’t fit what’s in a pro into a mini sized phone. You have to give something up. The battery was already smaller than the regular sized phones. So what would you be willing to give up from the regular line to get a mini that wasn’t Gimped?”
ASUS tried. Zenfone packed flagship camera, display and chip into a compact body, but still sales poorly. So they also gave up last year.
"All at an incredible value"? Are you really allowed to say that?
(Grammatically, I mean. I'm not asking for legal advice.)
Grammar parses for me.
This might replace my 12 mini. But I'll probably use my phone until it's dead or out of support because this phone just works for me from a form factor perspective.
It's unfortunate jumbotrons sell so well to the mindless masses that live on a phone. Otherwise the two main sizes would be the 5.42 and 6.3. Both reasonable for daily carry in a pocket. The 6.7 and 6.9" sizes are what are silly.
Does anyone else long for a new personal device (phone) maker/leader? A real AI phone where if you want you can have a full human like conversation (text, voice & video chat it recognizes gestures & emotions (facial expressions)) with your AI assistant from your lock screen.
I use chatGPT while driving in the car to get things done & as a knowledge base, but I have to open the app to use it (not safe when driving).
I have an iPhone 15 Pro and still with Siri's Apple Not-Intelligent I can only ask Siri one question at a time and I always have to say Hey Siri ask ChatGPT xyz and then to continue to learn more have to say that again with a follow-up question. It's such a terrible UX when compared to opening chatGPT and talking to it, yet again not safe to do so when driving!
You will likely need to wait for iOS 19 when they transplant an LLM into Siri for that kind interaction. Even then I’m not certain that Apple will go that direction.
Hopefully Open AI and Microsoft could release a true AI phone one that is like the movie H.E.R. where it does everything for you .. just like talking to a human via text, voice & video chat but ur human AI assistant. It interfaces with AI Agents of businesses, your friends, families and co-workers agents to get things scheduled, done, your knowledgebase on all things, etc for you.
Though H.E.R. without falling in love with it.
[dead]
How possible is it for there to be a "disruptor" to the smartphone market?
I think Apple's selling point is the app ecosystem, but I personally don't use apps all that much. Just a few big ones and they're all just for communication: FB Messenger, WhatsApp, SIM, SnapChat. And the web browser, maps. I'm 27.
Why can't someone just manufacture a screen, some buttons, little computer, then software for communication and make some good money?
Just seems Apple is a dinosaur nowadays Google too.
The lightphone is an option.
A few lower end black and white screen Android phones exist, and that seems closer to what you want.
I have some other obligations to handle, but the iPhone 16e looks perfect for me. You can replace so much music production gear with an IOS device. Can legit plug in a microphone and record a full album, which just isn't really their on Android.
It's beyond frustrating, but on IOS you have amazing music production, and Android is like 10 years behind. I wish Apple would offer a musicians edition with a headphone jack ( I'd literally pay an extra 150$) , but that's never going to happen...
What would a disruptor in the smartphone space even do in 2025?
It's not like the status quo phones are too expensive, too small or too slow compared to the average user's use case. There is a phone for every price point, and at worst you'll be stuck with a bad camera or a laggy chipset.
There are already phones running Linux and de-Googled OSes (Purism, Librem, LineageOS). They won't ever get big enough to challenge Apple/Samsung, but maybe be big enough to have a stable enough OS to not scare off people looking to switch.
Maybe it could be the Juul to Apple's Phillip Morris?
Phones occupy the same space as nicotine in my head, so why not explore that comparison?
Is it the phone or the software that you installed on the phone? You're blaming the horse the bandit rode in on rather than saying that the bandit is the issue.
I'm not "blaming" anyone.
Not sure how you can have the software without the hardware.
Screens are addictive. Why they are addictive is an interesting question- but regardless of the software being used- video games, social media, browsing the web, the fact remains that these activities are all addictive. I suspect it's just because screens are shiny, colorful, interactive objects. It doesn't matter what app you give a baby or a chimp, they will stare at the screen for many hours. TV addiction illustrates my point further.
Anyways, this is all besides my original question. Apple/Google feel like the IBM/HP of old. What shape will the new Apple/Google take?
The assumption that everyone has an issue with a device is where you loose me. I rarely look at my phone. I don't have any social apps on it. I only use the phone if I'm away from my keyboard. It is absolutely possible to own a device and not be addicted to it. I use my device for things that are useful, not unhealthy habits. It is not the device's fault you use it for unhealthy habits. Recognizing and admitting the problem is a huge step
> The assumption that everyone has an issue with a device is where you loose me
I made no such assumption.
This is far astray from the original thread
>Not sure how you can have the software without the hardware.
You can have good software. You can have bad software. The hardware does not make it good or bad. The software is whatever the devs made it to be utilizing whatever hardware on which it runs. The user is ultimately responsible for the software they use whether they installed it or it is preinstalled.
Again, blaming the horse because the rider is doing bad things is not the right approach
> In your example, I can just look thru your HN history and see you posted dozens of times yesterday.
What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? I don't use a device to do this.
You're describing the vast majority of Android phones.
There are a few innovations that would level them...
Great, another phone for giants. I’ll keep replacing battery in my 13 Mini, hoping for the best…
Seems nobody's mentioning that this model drops the sim slot completely.
It's a bummer, because it means that in case of need (broken phone) i cannot buy any new phone, drop my sim in and go.
It's a HUGE step back.
So goes the end of the mobile device, now all that’s sold are phablets.
This might be the new best price-quality iPhone after the 13 Pro.
Is this the new SE / Mini?
Edit: Nope. What's different from the 16? Action button? 1 less GPU core? Same camera but no ultra wide? Ahhh, it's just a cheapened 16.
Why do other manufacturers who debut phones don't get HN posts, but Apple does?
Xiaomi Poco X7 & X7 pro were released in Janunary, for example. Don't see a post about that.
I guess if you can reply here, you can post here too.
Why didn't you submit a story about those devices?
Because I don't think _either_ phone launches merits an HN story.
Scale?
be the change you want in the world
$599, 128gb base model.
Welp rip any interest a bunch of us had in an iphoneSE4.
What a fucking waste of time. The sad thing is I can accept that apple continually wants miserable storage base tiers, that ship has sailed and they will never see 256gb as logical starting points on a phone so damn expensive when their computers start at that horrid storage point.
If it was $499 I would have contemplated finally upgrading. At $599 I'll let everyone else beta test apples new modem in case its another 'you're holding it wrong' type of response if it underperforms in speed, connection quality, etc.
The SE3 was 64 GB base, they upped the base storage here. I agree that the price isn’t very attractive. Internationally it’s even worse.
When the SE2 and SE3 came out I yelled about the 64gb being complete shit then too. They consistently lag 5 years behind reasonable storage tiers for the price of the phone.
I don’t know about reasonable, I still don’t use more than 100 GB, and I assume that many people don’t really need more.
Its a mix out there. Personally I prefer to keep 100+GB of music on me because cell service in 2025 still sucks, and so does music subscription service offerings.
The average normal person I help with phones all seem to be running out of space but its usually done to junk apps they forgot they had, 60gb of grandkid videos, and 10 years of texts they keep dragging along.
The SE was always a bad value prop. A used iPhone was always a much better value. The only reason I approve of the SE is that they get very cheap via the prepaid market (regularly <$100)
cmd+f "jack" on Apple's page, got 0 results. Pass.
No mention of RAM either.
its pretty obvious they give u the singular camera circle so u will still feel a need for the 16 or 16 pro if u can afford it
I have only ever used Apple budget smartphones (5C and SE models), but I want/need lidar for mapping my house for WiFi networks.
Not sure if I want to upgrade.
I would love a lidar system I could use to map my house with. What are you hoping to do with WiFi on top of that? Optimal device placement?
Yeah, have a Ubiquiti home network, and want to optimize placement of my access points (before I install mounts on the walls/ceiling) and also would like to use it to compare different APs to see if an upgrade makes sense vs installing an extra AP for the garage that doesn't get good signal.
So you want a feature in a device that you're going to use for a single purpose one time? How many times do you need to map your house once you have the map? There's gotta be a better single use device for purpose rather than having it limit your options for a non-single purpose device.
Yes.
I'm applying your yes response to the final question of there's gotta be a better way than your request for an rarely used feature in a reduced feature device.
Lack of MagSafe is disappointing. How much would it have cost to include? It's an intriguing feature that distinguishes iPhones from Android competitors. I wonder if the intention was to avoid cannibalizing its more expensive siblings.
I don’t now why the hell people want anything larger than the mini in screen size.
Sadly yet another phablet
iPhone SE: $429, 4.7-inch display, 5.45 x 2.65 x 0.29, 5.09 ounces
iPhone 16e: $599, 6.1-inch display, 5.78 x 2.82 x 0.31, 5.88 ounces
This is a major downgrade in every way for people who want the smallest possible iPhone.
I would rather at this point have a watch with good cellular comms, that could use bluetooth for calls and let me tether a tablet for web use.
But I have to say, I was more annoyed by the loss of touch ID than by the increase in screen size. While I like the smallest possible iPhone, my SE has not been very nice to use lately. Developers aren't testing their sites/apps on that screen size, and many sites/apps are getting really janky when run on a screen that small.
Not to mention the damn TouchID. So much better of an experience on my old SE than on my 15 pro with FaceID.
I hear this and I do not relate at all. Face ID is so much more reliable than Touch ID ever was for me.
It's basically 6% longer, wider, and thicker.
I like small phones. 6% doesn't seem all that different from the current SE.
The fact that all that space seems to be going to battery life does seem nice...
Those 6% increases compound together though to create something with 20% more volume, that is pretty substantial
I've never heard anybody complain about volume. Just width/height.
I mean, isn't everyone here on HN always making fun of Apple's supposedly unnecessary obsession with thinness? Now it's a teensy bit thicker.
The 2D surface area, which affects holding and pocketing, is 13% larger.
Weight also matters.
I honestly still prefer the form factor of the iPhone 3GS. (I have an old one in a drawer for comparison.) 4.8 ounces, 4.5 x 2.4 x 0.48 with a rounded back. The thickness wasn't a problem.
You've never heard of people complaining about how "big" phones are, and wishing for a "smaller" phone? How would you measure "big" and "smaller" other than volume?
Volume would be a terrible metric for phones.
You don't make a phone half as tall and twice as thick and claim it's the same size...
Well it's 11% longer, wider, and thicker than the 13 mini, which has better everything than the SE.
The SE is not the smallest possible modern iPhone, just the smallest screen. The 13 mini has a larger screen but is physically smaller.
The 13 mini was discontinued in 2023.
The smallest possible iPhone ever was possibly the original iPhone.
You can still buy a pristine 13 mini on the secondary market. The original iPhone is not a viable device today, but the 13 mini is better across every tech axis (better processor, battery life, screen, camera, ...) than the SE and is worth comparing to.
>but the 13 mini is better across every tech axis (better processor, battery life, screen, camera, ...) than the SE and is worth comparing to.
They have the exact same A15 Bionic, with the same 4GB of memory. The 13 mini has an extra 400maH of battery.
I've had both and the iPhone SE (2022) lasted longer in my personal use. (sold the 13 in an antiapple mood only to come back and get an SE later)
This is missing the point. I have a 3rd gen SE and am not currently in the market for a new phone. The issue is that Apple is no longer selling anything to people who want a small iPhone. Moreover, the used market will dry up eventually, and iOS support will be dropped even sooner.
However, as the iPhone 12 and 13 mini demonstrated, the people who like small phones are a very vocal but extremely small minority (only 3% of US sales were the mini). They both sold so badly, it serves as a reality check for how small voices on the internet are compared to the market.
This is all relative. In absolute terms, the iPhone SE alone would be one of the most successful products in the world, more successful than the original iPhone back in the day.
iPhone as a category is so massive now that small percentages are still millions of people.
It's kind of sad that Apple itself has become so huge, because now the company ignores people it used to care about.
I guess a lot of people don't really have a computer or laptop anymore, their phone is their computer which they use for everything, so it makes sense to want as big a screen as possible.
For the kinds of people who frequent HN, I'd wager we all do have a computer, heck there's probably a laptop in your backpack right now, so it makes sense to have a smaller phone for 'phone stuff' and whip out your laptop to do anything more involved.
Still though, surely Apple made money from the mini, even 3% of iPhone sales is a lot of phone sales! I wish they would keep it around.
I feel like the 12 mini was objectively a subpar device, and maybe if 13 mini had come out first (after a long hiatus of not having smaller phones), then there might have been a chance. But probably not.
You're assuming most people even read the spec sheet and knew it was inferior on paper. I assure you, most did not. Most just looked at it, decided "too small," and that's about it.
I meant the people who wanted a small phone experienced it, and were disappointed, and it gained a bad reputation, potentially turning off others who also wanted a small phone.
There was a big gap (5+ years?) between the small iPhone SE and the 12 mini, so a lot of people jumping on 12 mini and being disappointed by the small phone may have resulted in disappointing sales of 13 mini.
But I’m sure the phone sellers know what they are doing, it just would have been nice to even be able to still buy a 13 mini. None of the new phones have any capabilities I care about.
Edit to respond to below:
I am not assuming that, I am actually assuming the opposite. There may have been pent up demand due to the long gap between the small iPhone SE and 12 mini, so when the 12 mini came out and disappointed, people who had been waiting to upgrade chose a non mini reducing the total number of minis sold. And then the 13 mini was discontinued by the time those people needed a new phone.
But again, probably wishful thinking on my part.
You're assuming that people upgrade phones every year, which (again) most do not. A badly received 12 mini would have almost no broad market effect on the sales of the 13 mini. Not unless most iPhone sales are by word of mouth.
Does anyone know how much of the razr 40/50 sold in millions?
In what universe would you leave that market share on the table?
If they're going to buy a regular iPhone for $100 more anyway, and the likelihood they buy a small Android instead is near zero (what small Android?), then yes, I absolutely would say to cut it and simplify the engineering, manufacturing, and checkout process.
If you start serving every 4% of needs in each product category, watch the portfolio balloon to catastrophic proportions. The very principle of the thing is anti-Apple; they would quickly become Samsung, complete with Samsung level naming schemes and weird decision making. Next thing you know, we'll have the Apple Vacuum Cleaner, the Apple Door Lock, the Apple Ice Cream Scoop, the Apple Exterior Camera, and so on.
This slippery slope argument doesn't click for me. They obviously perceive the value of segmenting the market by device size. I'm just asking for the smaller size to be actually small.
Or maybe opportunity cost is a real thing. They have decided it isn’t worth it to pursue that niche. I think Apple believes it has addressed a lot of the small screen needs with the watch.
Oh boy, a 6.1 inch screen. "Popular". Ugh. RIP any hopes of a small SE refresh.
I've gotten so used to my 13 mini that anything bigger just feels too big
Hoping against hope that Apple brings back that size/form factor someday so clinging on to my 13 mini until that day comes...
I eventually upgraded my 13 mini and I still miss it. Still irritates me that I can’t swipe down from the top of the screen with a one handed gesture.
Even the SE was a little bigger than the 4S screen I really miss. Combined with the angled sides it was the last phone I could comfortably operate with one hand.
I always hear people on hn asking for smaller screen. Apple actually made a small 12. It was the worst selling phone in the lineup.
The worst selling iPhone can still be a larger business than 50%+ of all android phones.
Citation needed.
Not only on HN, everywhere around me. It has to do with country trends I guess. In France, so many people want small phones. They just cannot buy them anymore, they're not produced.
Apple should just start a preorder site for a small iPhone 17 and wait until enough are collected to make it.
(Or do what I always thought they should do and have a small iPhone and a normal sized one with identical internals, only the case, battery, and screen would be different.)
Guess it's time to go get one of the flip phones...
I personally will never go back to flexible plastic screens. I used them enough in resistive touchscreens era.
I have a Razr. The touchscreen surface isn't glass (there's a TPU film on top for protection), but it's a very good experience and I rarely think about it not being glass.
I agree that the tech is not at the place where it was 25 years ago, but I fiddled with plastic screen protectors on top of these kinds of screens enough. I still use screen protectors, but glass on glass is a much better experience for me.
It's a matter of choice, and I'm not judging people who like it by any means, but I'm a bit boneheaded on these things and don't change my choices that fast. For example, I still don't think OLED is suitable for TV sized screens and laptops. I know how the color and contrast is better, but I don't want to replace my TV or laptop every three years because it develops subtle burn-ins for example. I come from CRTs, and can endure a good backlit LCD a couple of more years, esp if it has color temperature adaptive backlight.
I feel like these comments complaining about modern screen sizes don't consider that Bezels have shrunk a ton since.
Both SE 2020 and 2022 had a body size of 138.4mm x 67.3mm, which gives a diagonal of 153.9mm or 6.1 inches.
The new iPhone 16e has a body of 146.7mm x 71.5mm, with a diagonal of 163.2mm, or 6.4 inches. So only 5% bigger.
My hands are too small to comfortably use the screen. Bezel size don't matter.
How about accepting that we know what we want and that we don't need you you to lecture us on our preferences? Seriously, what's wrong with you? "Oh you complained about your preference on X, but let me educate you about your preferences are wrong?"
They need that screen so they can fit a reasonable battery underneath... an unfortunate tradeoff
13 mini battery life must be sufficient for most people. There are chargers everywhere now.
Seriously? They could just make the battery a bit thicker, it wouldn't even change the overall shape in a really perceptible way.
Came to the comments to see just this : how small is it ? On this huge page there is no mention of the size.
Size matters for me : I'm looking for a compact Android phone, there is none now. Something close to the iPhone 12 mini.
this was literally the only reason i wanted to buy a SE revamp
Back in my day, new advancements meant smaller phones. Hopefully we get back there soon. Till then, I'm sticking with my iPhone 12 mini.
Why are small phones not economical for major flagship phone developers? Obviously more expensive phones generate more revenue, but the reduced bill of materials on smaller phones should allow a better profit margin?
Mostly I just want a phone that is comfortable in my hands.
> but the reduced bill of materials on smaller phones should allow a better profit margin?
Is there a significantly reduced bill of materials? At best, the correlation between size and cost is very small. Most of the costs are in software, manufacturing, etc, not in materials.
Also, would there be a better profit margin? I bet customers won’t want to pay the same for a smaller phone, certainly not give that it will have lower battery life (power usage will, at best, go up with screen area, and battery volume will go up faster than phone volume because parts such as CPUs will not be smaller in smaller phones)
Because people expected to have lower prices with smaller phones.
Because nobody buys them.
Apple tried with the iPhone 12 mini, and the iPhone 13 mini. They were only 5% of phones sold globally, and only 3% of phones sold in the US.
The desire for small phones is an internet thing, but not backed by the market. Take it as a reality check for how internet opinions can be mostly irrelevant.
At the scale of Apple, is a specific device configuration that 'only' meets the needs of 3% of their market economically unviable? Did they build a whole special factory just for the slightly smaller device?
Not a whole factory but whole other tooling, so yes? The chassis is different, the screen is different, the mainboard is different, the layout is different, the battery is different, I think the camera was also different. Only thing shared between the other models was the buttons and the lightning port.
It's a huge cost for something that sold (relatively) poorly.
Apple has huge margins, it's not a problem unless you think about margins. Making more money is normally good, even if the margin is slightly lower.
But it’s better to sell phones with better margin. More people need to take Econ 101. Opportunity cost is an actual thing. You can be sure they did the math. Selling ever so slightly fewer larger phones at higher margin is better than selling slightly more phones at a lower margin.
Apple knows its sales and profits much better than anyone else.
And yet, here I sit with my iPhone 12 mini and will absolutely not upgrade until it explodes or there's a new mini. THAT is also an opportunity cost.
Apple knows you would upgrade to a Pro Max model if it was between that and switching to Android.
Apple owes small phone enjoyers nothing and they will drag you into paying more for a phone you don't want because you are helpless.
More skus is really really expensive quite often. You can end up with a low run product that is even more expensive than a 'premium' larger/nicer product.
If the margin is lower then you make less money not more.
If the additional revenue is positive, and the margin on that additional revenue is positive, you've made more money.
Exactly. But Apple has so many low hanging fruits that anything that doesn't make billions is irrelevant to them.
Apple is making way too much money for the good of their customers. If only people would stop mindlessly buying, they would eventually listen but their userbase has become so huge that they are not going to change anytime soon.
Nobody buys Apple products anymore because they’re too popular? Or maybe they’d be more popular if people bought fewer devices? I can’t make any sense out of what you’re saying.
What if, and I know this is a crazy thought but what if people aren’t buying Apple products mindlessly? What if they buy them because they like them? Maybe they’d didn’t buy the mini phones because they didn’t like them.
I didn't say any of the weird questions/statement you try to pin me for. Maybe it doesn't make sense to you because you are confused?
Then again, you are confused, I never said they were buying mindlessly. They buy it because they are popular and confer status. This is why the vast majority of people buy them, not a well-reasoned and careful choice attained by proper comparison and knowledge after reviewing options.
It's not good for people who view those things as tools, because price increase and focus on the historical target group diminish tremendously.
It's not something that is exclusive to Apple but it's particularly painful because of the quirks of computing (having software linked to a particular hardware platform).
And yes, they didn't buy the Mini phone because they didn't like them. It confers less status and is not as good as a social media machine, so of course.
But by this logic McDonalds must be good because of how many people like them and somehow that's a desirable and valuable outcome.
There are two big if’s there which probably won’t be correct for Apple.
The should have designed two phones, normal size and small, where the internals are the same and the only difference is the case/battery/screen.
3% can be "small" in the sense of operationally-insignificant/low-ROI, even at Apple's scale, when you consider that they only have a handful of models (currently five) shipping simultaneously.
Figure most of those 3% would buy a different iPhone model if their preference was not available (not Android, because even if brand loyalty / ecosystem lock-in wasn't so powerful, the Android small-phone options are not competitive).
Then figure that 0.5% (generously!) of lost revenue has to pay for all the custom tooling, parts, manufacturing lines, etc.
... and it all makes an infernal kind of sense.
I'm still anachronistically appreciating my iPhone SE (Gen 1) with a 4" IPS display, Touch ID, Lightning connector, and a 3.5mm audio jack. It's great!
Except that I'll need to upgrade from iOS 15 at some point. :)
> The desire for small phones is an internet thing, but not backed by the market. Take it as a reality check for how internet opinions can be mostly irrelevant.
People have said this for years, but the mini phones were never going to be instant day-one hits. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy to launch them during Covid, offer them 2 years, and say no one wants them.
Give them a permanent place in the lineup, treating phones like every other very personal device meant for humans. Small, medium, and large.
If you do that, and give people time to see exactly why 5.42 screens are superior to 6.1"+ sizes, then I think the numbers will start to change from what we saw with the iPhone 12 mini and iPhone 13 mini that were launched when people were less on the go than in 100 years.
And no, I don't think a mini SKU can ever beat out the "cheap and big" midrange device that the average person is going to go for. Those will never be beat because they have perceived value. But I would bet in time it comes close or beats the "big and expensive" iPhone Pro Max option.
The C1 is (fingers crossed) probably going to be a big improvement on the security front, since historically, cellular modems have been chock full of remotely exploitable security flaws.
That said, if this is their "first gen" then there could be teething issues.
Starting at $599!.
With 128 GB storage.
[dead]
[dead]
[dead]
[flagged]
If it had a small screen that would be 110% fine. As it is, I think that no-bezel devices are easier to misclick on, but I agree that it does seem very strange on apple's part.
[flagged]
[flagged]
300+ comments about a 'new' iPhone. Does it even fold? Lol
What does the e stands for? Eviscerated? :)
It would be nice to put the last few years of developments since his death into a silicon brain and ask the digital Steve Jobs his thoughts on the current state of affairs.
I need this.
Article reads like an ad.
WOW I LOVE IPHONE
Apple has fallen off in every product category.
Looks more and more that Apple is pushing AI inference to the edges, with this and the Mac Mini and it's very suspiciously placed power button which says "No, you don't need to shut this computer off. It has important work to do! (For everyone else)"
Will be interesting to see how Apple and Nvidia's approaches to AI compare and contrast over the coming months/years.
I am hoping Apple at some point in the future will allow iphone owners who also own a Mac with an M series chip to run Apple Intelligence from the Mac to take advantage of faster compute and larger parameter models while still operating at the 'edge'. If the apple private cloud tech allows for a Tailscale like connectivity between your mac and all iphone/ipads on an icloud account I could see that as an additional hook to stay inside the apple ecosystem in addition to the benefits brought to bear by having a much more capable LLM to offload compute to without involving 3rd party AI companies. Perhaps bundle the feature with iCloud+ subscription?
Right??! Others are downvoting me for supposedly inventing a conspiracy theory but to me it lines up pretty well with their business and could offer some compelling value to customers. Most people haven't read up on their private cloud stuff.
But I really did think that about the Mac Mini power button!
> It has important work to do! (For everyone else)
Where do you get that macOS is running code like this? I've never heard of shared compute on my computer for anything other than software I deliberately installed. I haven't paid that close attention to the past couple of OS propaganda films at the start of WWDC. Did I miss something?
I'm not saying they currently are. They wouldn't until they knew that whatever they were doing was utterly secure. I'm just positing that they might be going there.
Are you promoting some kind of conspiracy theory that Apple is using some people's devices to do inference for other people's devices?
There's absolutely zero evidence of that, and it would be easy to observe it happening. So why are you pushing some kind of totally false narrative?
Maybe there's zero evidence now, but think about the lengths to which Apple has gone to build a private cloud infrastructure and why they would do so. It's one thing for them to offer that as a do-gooder service to their customers, which it certainly is. But once it's established as private and secure, why wouldn't they use spare compute at the edge for inference? It's smart. It's not a conspiracy.
> think about the lengths to which Apple has gone to build a private cloud infrastructure
None? I don't know what you're referring to. Apple's not running any kind of cloud on my private device. Their Private Cloud Compute is about running inference on Apple's cloud but with privacy guarantees -- not on consumer devices.
> It's one thing for them to offer that as a do-gooder service to their customers, which it certainly is.
Again, no idea what you're talking about. Who's doing good to who? Apple's providing a service to get you to buy their hardware. Consumers aren't doing good for other consumers.
> why wouldn't they use spare compute at the edge for inference? It's smart.
You're talking about on people's devices? Because it would use up their battery and heat up their devices and connectivity can be spotty which leads to terrible latency. I mean, that would be as bad as secretly mining Bitcoin on people's devices. How would that ever be smart?
And Apple's in the business of selling hardware. Not helping people save money by sharing hardware. You can't even share an iPad with different logins for family members.
Apple and Nvidia have arguably already diverged at the important forks in the road. Nvidia believes in complex GPU/streaming multiprocessor stacks - Apple relies on specialized hardware. Apple used to support a more complex software stack that could enable them to compete with Nvidia, but abandoned it shortly before the crypto craze to focus on NPU hardware.
...and then NPUs sorta did nothing. They run a few tiny models, maybe, but for any "serious" inference tasks Apple will automatically prioritize your 10x more powerful GPU hardware. Oftentimes the GPU is more efficient too, depending on the task.
So now Apple has a choice to make. They can either attempt to scale-up the NPU hardware and leave it on-device as dark silicon 99% of the time, or they can renovate their GPU hardware to support complex GPGPU operations and axe the NPU altogether. Right now it seems like Nvidia has the right idea, Apple just needs to find out how to scale it down as well as they can.
Their private cloud for AI reads on the surface like the answer. If they can establish privacy then they can push the work to the edges.
Again, I'm not saying the are. They're the only ones that could, though.
If you just read my comment and arrived at the conclusion that private compute is the solution, you misunderstand the issue at hand.
Networking compute isn't an issue. Compute architecture is.
Sure so then ask yourself what advantages could an NPU have over a general purpose GPU. Your assumption is that Apple has erred. However if security was top priority, then that could make NPU make sense in the long run. And then ask why security is so important… it becomes vastly more important when your device is operating on other people’s workloads.